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      01-03-2020, 01:00 PM   #89
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I'd really would be interested in their reasonings. Respected companies such as Bosch and Axis have IP cameras which are not cheap.

Having run my Hikvision camera system for years, I don't see their issue with it. I've actually been in a operations center for a to be unnamed Federal Agency and was horrified by the picture quality of their camera system (closed circuit based) which didn't even come close to the quality of my system.
I would guess that they have concerns about the hack-ability of IP cameras, just like all the other digital assets of an organization.

I always thought "Hickvision" was a redneck pushing the curtains aside with the barrel of a shotgun, to peer out the window. Shows how out-of-date my expertise has become in that area.
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      01-03-2020, 01:12 PM   #90
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I would guess that they have concerns about the hack-ability of IP cameras, just like all the other digital assets of an organization.

I always thought "Hickvision" was a redneck pushing the curtains aside with the barrel of a shotgun, to peer out the window. Shows how out-of-date my expertise has become in that area.
I guess hacking can be a concern. But my cameras are hard wired and isolated on a separate segment on my home network. I only allow certain IP blocks to have access to the cameras. For remote access, the only way you're getting to the cameras is via the SSL VPN server I have set up for secure remote access. So as far as security is concern, it's all about how the system is implemented.

I also had a similar reaction with the Hikvision name. Thought it was going to be some cheap fly by night operation.
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      01-03-2020, 01:17 PM   #91
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So as far as security is concern, it's all about how the system is implemented.
Indeed. You can have the latest-greatest everything, and it'll all be for naught if it's not used as intended and configured thoughtfully.
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      01-03-2020, 01:24 PM   #92
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Quote:
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I'd really would be interested in their reasonings. Respected companies such as Bosch and Axis have IP cameras which are not cheap.

Having run my Hikvision camera system for years, I don't see their issue with it. I've actually been in a operations center for a to be unnamed Federal Agency and was horrified by the picture quality of their camera system (closed circuit based) which didn't even come close to the quality of my system.
I would guess that they have concerns about the hack-ability of IP cameras, just like all the other digital assets of an organization.
I believe the avoidance was in relation to performance. This may very well been in relation to cost though. I just recall when the national distributor I worked for started carrying surveillance systems we all thought the logical choice was an IP-based systems, but after my team was trained on the subject they realized a conventional system was the better choice. As I recall, this had to do with all aspects of the systems... from cameras, to recorders, to cabling.

This was about 5 years ago so maybe my experience is out of date? Like insaid, this isn't my area of expertise.

Edit: through the fog of my brain I recall one limitation was the 328' limit of a cable run of an IP system. Coax-based systems didn't have this limitation. This can be a real issue in commercial; MDU; or large residential applications.
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      01-03-2020, 01:41 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I believe the avoidance was in relation to performance. This may very well been in relation to cost though. I just recall when the national distributor I worked for started carrying surveillance systems we all thought the logical choice was an IP-based systems, but after my team was trained on the subject they realized a conventional system was the better choice. As I recall, this had to do with all aspects of the systems... from cameras, to recorders, to cabling.

This was about 5 years ago so maybe my experience is out of date? Like insaid, this isn't my area of expertise.

Edit: through the fog of my brain I recall one limitation was the 328' limit of a cable run of an IP system. Coax-based systems didn't have this limitation. This can be a real issue in commercial; MDU; or large residential applications.
Not sure what was provided as information at the time of your training. But I don't have any issues with performance with my system. It's still very good even though it's several years old. I like the fact I can integrate it into my Vista15P home security system if I so choose as a triggered sensor. The flexibility of me be able to off load video onto any type of network attached storage device. And it's been proven to operate in extreme environmental conditions.

In regards to the max cabling length, there are systems out there which will allow longer runs of Ethernet cabling beyond the 100 meter standard max specification. So there are work arounds.
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      01-03-2020, 02:03 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I believe the avoidance was in relation to performance. This may very well been in relation to cost though. I just recall when the national distributor I worked for started carrying surveillance systems we all thought the logical choice was an IP-based systems, but after my team was trained on the subject they realized a conventional system was the better choice. As I recall, this had to do with all aspects of the systems... from cameras, to recorders, to cabling.

This was about 5 years ago so maybe my experience is out of date? Like insaid, this isn't my area of expertise.

Edit: through the fog of my brain I recall one limitation was the 328' limit of a cable run of an IP system. Coax-based systems didn't have this limitation. This can be a real issue in commercial; MDU; or large residential applications.
Not sure what was provided as information at the time of your training. But I don't have any issues with performance with my system. It's still very good even though it's several years old. I like the fact I can integrate it into my Vista15P home security system if I so choose as a triggered sensor. The flexibility of me be able to off load video onto any type of network attached storage device. And it's been proven to operate in extreme environmental conditions.

In regards to the max cabling length, there are systems out there which will allow longer runs of Ethernet cabling beyond the 100 meter standard max specification. So there are work arounds.
It was probably a cost/performance consideration. Perhaps this is old news in 2020.
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      01-03-2020, 05:16 PM   #95
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As an experiment, I installed the workhorse of business class 10Gig NICs (Intel X520) into my gaming PC running Windows 8.1 (now upgraded to Windows 10) to see if it would work. To my surprise it did without having to play driver roulette.

Some of the activities I do which is more about my IT hobby and work is moving around large ISO and OVA/OVF files building out new virtual machines in my vSphere cluster. Being able move around/load those files with 10Gig connectivity saves tons of time.

In addition to that, my MD3800i iSCSI array requires 10Gig connectivity. I haven't leveraged this but will when I get my 2 Cisco UCS240 servers up and running is FCoE...more specifically leveraging the features of DCB (data center bridging).

Also, I have a few connected devices running on my PoE access switch where that traffic gets distributed to other parts of my network. If I ran that through even bonded 1Gig links, performance would be worse than running over a single 10Gig link. I have 10Gig running between this switch and the top of rack switch in my server rack.

Truth be told, the server I run 24/7 is my physical host for about 24 VMs of which about 8 VMs run 24/7. Because of the traffic going in and out of these VMs, the server is 40Gig attached to the top of rack switch.
Going to run VGPU in those C240s?
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      01-03-2020, 05:36 PM   #96
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Going to run VGPU in those C240s?
They were spec'd out with the intention of running them as a demo for Commvault Hyperscale. I also had a limited budget from the funding source for the project because I have a 6332-16UP Fabric Interconnect as part of the package. I tried keeping the physical configuration of the C240s where I could adjust them based on different projects I wanted to run on them.

The good thing is they're the lastest M5 version.
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      01-09-2020, 11:18 AM   #97
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This was about 5 years ago so maybe my experience is out of date? Like insaid, this isn't my area of expertise.
5 years is an eternity in the security/surveillance market. I'll be attending my 8th consecutive ISC West security expo in March and you'd be surprised how fast things change in this industry from year to year.

Although "coax cams" (TurboHD, HD-TVI, etc.) have come a long way, those systems are typically deployed for convenience sake, where cable/power infrastructure is already in place. Those cams are also ultra cheap, but other than that, IP is the standard in more cases than not.

In terms of distance, you'd be surprised how far some of the new tech companies like Dahua are rolling out. I've tested multiple 4K cameras on their ePoE switches to well over 1000 ft over standard Cat5E. Granted, running anything of this nature over ~300 ft definitely makes me nervous, but at the end of the day, the results speak for themselves.
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      01-09-2020, 12:01 PM   #98
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I've been reading through this, and as someone who works in this industry, I can make some comments. And again this isn't for a data center, just a home use with your basic smarthome stuff.

first, lets discuss copper v fiber.
The only time you run fiber is if you are running distances longer than copper can handle.
Depending on the quality of your switches and bends in the cable this can be 2-300'.
For most homes you won't hit this limitation, and in the truly large stuff (no longer the homes of mere mortals) you just put another rack to link back to the first over fiber, but you always run copper to each piece of equipment.
There is no advantage in real world residential use in terms of bandwidth or latency of fiber. (this is like asking which is heavier, a pound of bricks or a pound of feathers).

Second, same issue with cat5e or 6. You won't realize any difference. Your quality of terminations will have a larger impact on performance than the cable itself. I would only recommend cat-6 if there's no financial hurt in doing so. It's more complicated to pull and devices in a home do not take advantage of cat-6's improvements over cat5e. Still, if your source finds them to be equally priced go cat6.

Lastly is what to wire, and the answer is everything but your phones. Ideally you should not have any piece of equipment that sits in your house on wifi. Make wifi devices the exception no the rule. Every PC, printer, TV, refrigerator, smart speaker, whatever, should all be wired.
That just leaves tablets/phones and laptops riding the wave. Plus the occasional thermostat.
Most important is to not install 2.4GHz wifi or purchase any device that is limited to that (stick to 5ghz). Most home access points have both bands, turn the 2.4 band off. Your devices and neighbors will thank you. This will have a much larger real world benefit than deciding cat5 or 6, or fiber/copper.
Because 5ghz has a considerably shorter range than 2.4 you will need a proper mesh setup (with wired backhaul) that has access points in every common area (if this were a hotel, I'd suggest an access point in every room or every other room depending on size, with the power of the radio to be as low as realistic so that the wifi bubble of one does not interfere with the other). Do not run 'extenders' under any circumstances.

Finally cameras. For ease of installation, get analog. There is zero programming this way. Just plug in the cameras at each end.
However, if you want the fancy stuff, you go IP, but each camera has to be individually programmed and you need to run a separate power over ethernet network for cameras (do not run them on your network with your other equipment, the video packets interfere with other data traffic).
It is for that reason, especially in instances of 16 cameras or fewer, that it's just less of a headache and easier to troubleshoot if you run analog. There's just less stuff to go wrong.
From a footage/recording standpoint, real world, you won't notice a difference. The software that manages the recordings is more important than whether the source was an analog or digital feed.

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      01-09-2020, 01:02 PM   #99
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Because 5ghz has a considerably shorter range than 2.4 you will need a proper mesh setup (with wired backhaul) that has access points in every common area (if this were a hotel, I'd suggest an access point in every room or every other room depending on size, with the power of the radio to be as low as realistic so that the wifi bubble of one does not interfere with the other). Do not run 'extenders' under any circumstances.
What systems would you recommend in a residential environment?

Also, what type of "extenders" are you specifically referring to?

Although powerline extenders/adapters aren't ideal, at the end of the day, they've worked plenty well enough for me in both wired and wireless applications to rely on them more often than not.
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      01-09-2020, 01:19 PM   #100
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Minimum you would want are following:

1. Electrical outlet at TV locations - Top and bottom with chase for AV ports. These parts are cheap and concealed setup will give the new buyer confident that the house was well prepped and considered.

2. CAT5 or 6 from basement to main living, and potential office area on other floors.
If you are serious and ready to spend about $5,000, have them run from main box to all rooms.

3. Coax to main areas

4. In ceiling speakers in living/kitchen area is a good idea. Zoning them separately is not necessary unless you are planning to build a A/V closet.
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      01-09-2020, 02:13 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
What systems would you recommend in a residential environment?

Also, what type of "extenders" are you specifically referring to?

Although powerline extenders/adapters aren't ideal, at the end of the day, they've worked plenty well enough for me in both wired and wireless applications to rely on them more often than not.
Great question, depends on the home and type of walls/floors. Older homes with plaster covered mesh are very tricky since they are basically faraday cages.
Modern stick construction is different since its practically open.

Long story short, that just means the layout will differ but the product stays the same.
In the overwhelming majority of cases where they want to stay to a budget I get them a netgear orbi set. (I've done the EERO's and Nest wifi and Plume, and while EERO is the best here for the phone app based wifi, objectively none of them are as good as Orbi.)
These can be worked on by non-tech people which is the goal. No requirements for POE, or any fancy network stuff. It's a self contained wifi management system (you just turn it on, give it an SSID name, and tell it to act in AP mode). The only drawback is they aren't ceiling mounted, they need to sit on a shelf or credenza/nightstand. Basically it's a decor decision.

For more demanding applications at the lowest price Ubiquity works but require someone IT savvy. It also requires a wifi controller separately, and a non-standard POE network which is annoying. They can be ceiling mounted of course. I've learned over the years, that, especially in residential, it's better to dumb down the setup and isolate. Easier to troubleshoot.

At the higher levels I do Ruckus and Meraki/Cisco. But never recommend the latter, it's just too expensive for what it offers. Ruckus is the best extant and if this is someone who demands aesthetics, wants a self contained product with no 3rd party software, this is the way to go. (we're now at the commercial/enterprise level here, but if you get something second hand you save a buck).

As for 'extenders' - anything and everything called an extender or booster. They actively hurt wifi by design. Sure they extend the ability to see the SSID, but at the cost of usable bandwidth. The opposite of what mesh does (mesh just means more wifi, it doesn't extend anything, it just adds more where there was none with the ability to roam between wifi bubbles (extenders can't do this)).
As for power line, or any network expander that relies on something other than the main network to function, yes they serve a need, but for long term reliability, and repeatable performance, you're better off finding a way to avoid them. (believe it or not, one of the perks of Orbi is that it replaces powerline saving some money, it has the option for dedicated network backhaul over wireless if you can't run a cable to it, and it has spare ports inside, so not only does it add wifi coverage, it adds wired coverage).

Seth

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      01-09-2020, 02:17 PM   #102
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Our appointment with the tech folks is next Tuesday. I requesting pricing for 2xCAT6 and 1xRG6 in 7 rooms. Forgot to ask for a conduit from basement to attic. I also asked for a wired alarm setup with iPhone access. We'll see how much they charge.
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      01-09-2020, 02:26 PM   #103
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Great question, depends on the home and type of walls/floors.
Interesting...thanks for the insight.

Yeah, I've deployed/managed Ubiquiti Unifi products in a corporate environment as well. Super frustrating to get consistent, as you mentioned. Meraki is much more user friendly but also prohibitively expensive.

Will check into the others you mentioned though...much appreciated!
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      01-09-2020, 02:27 PM   #104
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Our appointment with the tech folks is next Tuesday. I requesting pricing for 2xCAT6 and 1xRG6 in 7 rooms. Forgot to ask for a conduit from basement to attic. I also asked for a wired alarm setup with iPhone access. We'll see how much they charge.
I've been wondering why the low voltage contractor isn't proposing what you should be putting in your home. Part of what you're paying for is them to design the low voltage infrastructure. I respect wanting to be knowledgeable enough to approve their design/plan, but red flags are going up when I think about the contractor having the homeowner design this stuff. Is the plumber asking you what size and type of pipes he's putting in too? Lol

Please don't take this as an attack on you. I'm just saying I'd keep your ideas to yourself and hear what the pro suggests first. Then talk with the pro about the differences between his ideas and yours. They're the professional. If you don't respect them as such I'd find another until I did.

You're not having an electrician design your low voltage infrastructure are you? Perhaps that's the problem.
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      01-09-2020, 02:33 PM   #105
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I've been wondering why the low voltage contractor isn't proposing what you should be putting in your home. Part of what you're paying for is them to design the low voltage infrastructure. I respect wanting to be knowledgeable enough to approve their design/plan, but red flags are going up when I think about the contractor having the homeowner design this stuff. Is the plumber asking you what size and type of pipes he's putting in too? Lol

Please don't take this as an attack on you. I'm just saying I'd keep your ideas to yourself and hear what the pro suggests first. Then talk with the pro about the differences between his ideas and yours. They're the professional. If you don't respect them as such I'd find another until I did.

You're not having an electrician design your low voltage infrastructure are you? Perhaps that's the problem.
I don't trust them. I trust the plumbers and electricians.
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      01-09-2020, 02:38 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I've been wondering why the low voltage contractor isn't proposing what you should be putting in your home. Part of what you're paying for is them to design the low voltage infrastructure. I respect wanting to be knowledgeable enough to approve their design/plan, but red flags are going up when I think about the contractor having the homeowner design this stuff. Is the plumber asking you what size and type of pipes he's putting in too? Lol

Please don't take this as an attack on you. I'm just saying I'd keep your ideas to yourself and hear what the pro suggests first. Then talk with the pro about the differences between his ideas and yours. They're the professional. If you don't respect them as such I'd find another until I did.

You're not having an electrician design your low voltage infrastructure are you? Perhaps that's the problem.
I don't trust them. I trust the plumbers and electricians.
The best advice I can give is find someone you do trust.
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      01-09-2020, 02:41 PM   #107
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The best advice I can give is find someone you do trust.
I trust me. This isn't rocket science and I know what I want. Now I am hoping the meeting next week is simply a matter of them doing what I want and not trying to sell me a bunch of crap I don't want. They already have stuff on the included list I don't want them to install like a wireless doorbell and thermostat. I know what I want in those and it isn't what they are selling.

I am approaching MultiSource like they are ADT. Numbnuts without a clue. Hopefully I am wrong.
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      01-09-2020, 02:56 PM   #108
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The best advice I can give is find someone you do trust.
I trust me. This isn't rocket science and I know what I want. Now I am hoping the meeting next week is simply a matter of them doing what I want and not trying to sell me a bunch of crap I don't want. They already have stuff on the included list I don't want them to install like a wireless doorbell and thermostat. I know what I want in those and it isn't what they are selling.

I am approaching MultiSource like they are ADT. Numbnuts without a clue. Hopefully I am wrong.
Oh boy.

I wonder why the LV contractor is the one contractor you don't trust? How do you not see lack of trust as being a major problem? Are you obligated to use that contractor?

I don't know what you do for a living, but obviously you're a professional at something. Do you let your customers dictate how you do your job?

As the homeowner you should be dictating the result. It's up to the contractor to figure out how to bring your vision to fruition.
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      01-09-2020, 03:17 PM   #109
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Oh boy.

I wonder why the LV contractor is the one contractor you don't trust? How do you not see lack of trust as being a major problem? Are you obligated to use that contractor?

I don't know what you do for a living, but obviously you're a professional at something. Do you let your customers dictate how you do your job?

As the homeowner you should be dictating the result. It's up to the contractor to figure out how to bring your vision to fruition.
I'll report back next week after I meet with them.
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      01-09-2020, 03:20 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Oh boy.

I wonder why the LV contractor is the one contractor you don't trust? How do you not see lack of trust as being a major problem? Are you obligated to use that contractor?

I don't know what you do for a living, but obviously you're a professional at something. Do you let your customers dictate how you do your job?

As the homeowner you should be dictating the result. It's up to the contractor to figure out how to bring your vision to fruition.
I'll report back next week after I meet with them.
Please know I'm only trying to help. Wishing you the best.
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