[ska///235i]

cousins of the Acura TL

[Slow_335i]

eh... All it is a Chevy Cruz disguise.

[nmulax]

Originally Posted by Slow_335i

eh... All it is a Chevy Cruz disguise.

What makes you say that?
It shares nothing with the Cruze, and is the first car on GM's new Alpha platform.

Saw it yesterday at the auto show; I'd say it's even better looking in person. While it's a bit more subdued than the CTS, it still shares the design language and I can't wait to see the V-series.

[bimmer_335]

2.0L turbo produces 270hp... car weighs 3400 lbs...

Can it be a worthy competitor... it definitely looks good on paper.

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/stor...FREE&cm_ite=NA

[Bavarian13]

The new Catera. Funny you say it looks good on paper, don't most GM cars look alright on paper?

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by Bavarian13

The new Catera. Funny you say it looks good on paper, don't most GM cars look alright on paper?

Yeah the ZR1 looks pretty good on paper. But only on paper, right? And the CTS-V? What a pile of crap IRL, amirite?

Anyway, there's already a discussion going on about this in the non-BMW News and Cars Discussion subforum HERE. Decent amount of input already, and since this thread has nothing to do with BMW, it'll probably get merged with the other one or locked anyway.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by Slow_335i

eh... All it is a Chevy Cruz disguise.

By that logic, your car is a base Mini in disguise

[SmartBastard]

Does anyone still like chrome wheels? On a production car? Really?
The interior looks very nice, let's just hope it's the the crappy light plastic you usually get in a US car.

[ENINTY]

The ATS will probably be my next car. I've been waiting for the ATS debut. After building a new F30 on BMW's website I learned the following about the F30:

In the sport line:

I-drive is mandatory
No plain black paint is available; only metallic black.
HID's are a $900 option and only come joined with the $3,600 premium package (so if you want HIDs they cost $4,500).
Only one choice of leatherette interior (black).
Base engine is a 4-banger turbo; no NA I-6. Based on the N54 I will not touch a BMW gas turbo engine.

So hopefully the new ATS will be what the last 4 models of the 3-series has been:

A drivers car with a decent base car to option out.
A good manual transmission.
An excellent base motor.
Good build quality, something BMW has been slowly losing these past few years.

I'm looking forward to my first test drive.

I was planning on keeping the E90 until 250,000 miles (around August 2014). I may just get rid of it when the ATS comes out. BMW has lost me as a customer with the new F30 offering.

[Pangloss]

It sounds like they lost you with the awful, miserably bad N54 that everyone loved.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

It sounds like they lost you with the awful, miserably bad N54 that everyone loved.

Everyone loves it when it's working.

[ALPINE6SPD]

I think its ugly and looks like an old mans car. I can promise it will be slower than new body 328 also regardless of what they say the HP is. Look at how slow the 300+ HP CTS is.

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

It sounds like they lost you with the awful, miserably bad N54 that everyone loved.

Well that and not being able to get just plain black paint. I mean really, you can't buy just a plain black BMW anymore?

I drive 35,000+ miles a year. I need a reliable car; I don't have time to drop it off at BMW to keep it running. N54's are not reliable. 335i guys love to say how "fast" their car is. Well, there is always a faster car. So the 335i goes to 60 in 5.1 - 5.4 seconds, and a 325/328 hits 60 in 6.1 - 6.4 seconds, who cares. Both are plenty fast for street use. I'll take a reliable, smooth, naturally aspirated I-6 over any other engine configuration (except maybe a small V8 of the same displacement).

Cheers.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by ALPINE6SPD

I can promise it will be slower than new body 328 also regardless of what they say the HP is. Look at how slow the 300+ HP CTS is.

Ummm...going to hard to keep that promise.

You are comparing the ATS to the CTS. The ATS is going to weigh just over 3300 lbs. Lightest car in the segment. CTS is over 500 lbs heavier.

The turbo-4 ATS will have 270hp. So...30 more hp and 100 lbs less weight. Willing to bet it will be quicker than the new 328i.

[Pangloss]

The shift from sixes to turbo fours is an industry trend, and follows tech improvements that make those turbo 4s as smooth as sixes. And it's about MPG, not speed. Blame Obama, not BMW.

Originally Posted by ENINTY

N54's are not reliable.

Prior to the Costa Concordia disaster the cruise line industry had only lost 11 passengers over a span of 100 million passenger cruises. Is the cruise industry safe? I doubt the relatives of that 5-yr-old still-missing girl think so.

BMW has sold hundreds of thousands of N54-equipped cars. How many had problems? If you don't have a number, as well as an objective definition for "reliable", then you can't defend that statement. Period. And someone with a 3k+ post count should know this.

[krnnerdboy]

I bought the 328i based on the same reasoning as you, I drive 30k mi a year and reliability was at the utmost of importance. But since then I've also owned the n55 x5 and am sold on the reliability of the new turbo motors from bmw...remember theirs also the mini cooper 1.6 twin scrolls that have been out for the past 5 years and they have proven to be bulletproof... this n20 motor has me sold and I don't think the ats will stand a chance unless they offer 0% and huge rebates.

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

The shift from sixes to turbo fours is an industry trend, and follows tech improvements that make those turbo 4s as smooth as sixes. And it's about MPG, not speed. Blame Obama, not BMW.



Prior to the Costa Concordia disaster the cruise line industry had only lost 11 passengers over a span of 100 million passenger cruises. Is the cruise industry safe? I doubt the relatives of that 5-yr-old still-missing girl think so.

BMW has sold hundreds of thousands of N54-equipped cars. How many had problems? If you don't have a number, as well as an objective definition for "reliable", then you can't defend that statement. Period. And someone with a 3k+ post count should know this.

I'll defend my statement with the following:

(1) BMW upped the warranty to 10 years/120,000 miles on the HPFP.
(2) BMW has issued a USA national recall to replace the HPFP.
(3) The issue was so bad, it got national attention on almost every TV channel.

If GM or Ford had these types of issues, all the fanboyz would be harping on ANY car produced by them worse than they already do.

I'll blame BMW, the car company that puts 500+ HP twin-turbo V8s in overweight useless vehicles such as the X6 the X5M, which count against the CAFE. So to offset the CAFE MPG hit from those vehicles, BMW takes the 3-series (the 328i being its highest volume selling car) and puts a 4-banger turbo in it.

It's nice to say "it's an industry trend" but to me, a long time BMW fan and owner, BMW used to NOT follow industry trends; which is how they got the reputation they now have. With the E30, BMW added the I-6 to their product line back when other manufacturers were downsizing engines with 4 cylinders and turbos.

With BMW's engineering prowess I expected them to build the F30 with a smaller I-6 keeping the same power to weight ratio of my current E90 and increase the MPG by 10%. My N52 makes 215 HP and 185 lb/ft torque. For a daily driver it's plenty fast enough and gets good gas mileage (I get an average of 27 MPG). I'd buy an F30 if it had, say a 2.0 - 2.5L I-6 with the same or a bit less power than the N52, and was a bit slower to 60 by a half second. Keeping the reliable, naturally aspirated I-6 is more important to me than an increased 0-60 time and a few more MPG. I've yet to see in real world use a turbo motor that provides a significant MPG increase compared to a larger displacement engine of the same power rating. I think the turbos get good MPG in EPA testing, but in real world use the increase in not all that great.

BMW sells expensive cars, most of the price premium is in the engineering and the economics of small sales volumes, not in the value (perceived high quality) of the components. The 3-series is just a really expensive Civic. I think it is totally possible for BMW to offer the smaller I-6 I'd like to have, the new N20 for the MPG/HP leader, and the N55, without really changing the pricing model for the whole line.


Just my 2 cents in my 3,120th post...

[Pangloss]

I'll defend my statement with the following:

(1) BMW upped the warranty to 10 years/120,000 miles on the HPFP.
(2) BMW has issued a USA national recall to replace the HPFP.
(3) The issue was so bad, it got national attention on almost every TV channel.

I got recall notices for each of the last four cars I've owned -- all from different manufacturers. Not one of the problems affected me personally. All four cars *seemed* reliable to me because I didn't have to deal with the problems those recalls represented. Was I wrong? I don't think so. But I have no doubt that had I logged into a forum for all four of those cars I would have found someone like yourself declaring the model/engine "unreliable".

That's why what's required for a statement of "unreliable" is statistical evidence that the majority, or even a LARGE minority, of N54 owners had to deal with this problem. For casual evidence of a larger problem I'd even settle for *10%*. What you can show from forums is more like 0.01%. But there are no numbers, so an objective determination of "unreliable" is unsupportable.

With BMW's engineering prowess I expected them to build the F30 with a smaller I-6 keeping the same power to weight ratio of my current E90 and increase the MPG by 10%. My N52 makes 215 HP and 185 lb/ft torque. For a daily driver it's plenty fast enough and gets good gas mileage (I get an average of 27 MPG).

"Good" is not a government standard. I got no beef with your opinion here, but by 2015 the US fleet average has to be at 54.5 mpg -- more than twice what you're getting now. They won't get there with straight sixes as the base choice -- they have to push large the majority of owners into 4-cylinder cars so the minority of owners can have the kind of high performance that sells the brand. That's the reality. As I told you, this is an industry/political issue, not a BMW issue. Your opportunity to do something about this comes up the first week of November.

If you're lucky and they meet the standard, perhaps at some point they can bring back normally-aspirated sixes as a mid-level offering in the future. Certainly your purchase is as valid as any racing fanboy's purchase and I fully support your goal here.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

I got recall notices for each of the last four cars I've owned -- all from different manufacturers. Not one of the problems affected me personally. All four cars *seemed* reliable to me because I didn't have to deal with the problems those recalls represented. Was I wrong? I don't think so. But I have no doubt that had I logged into a forum for all four of those cars I would have found someone like yourself declaring the model/engine "unreliable".

I see you are a new-ish member to the board. The HPFP problem is actually a much bigger problem than you think.

Some people on the board are their 3rd or 4th HPFP with their N54 car.

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

I got recall notices for each of the last four cars I've owned -- all from different manufacturers. Not one of the problems affected me personally. All four cars *seemed* reliable to me because I didn't have to deal with the problems those recalls represented. Was I wrong? I don't think so. But I have no doubt that had I logged into a forum for all four of those cars I would have found someone like yourself declaring the model/engine "unreliable".

That's why what's required for a statement of "unreliable" is statistical evidence that the majority, or even a LARGE minority, of N54 owners had to deal with this problem. For casual evidence of a larger problem I'd even settle for *10%*. What you can show from forums is more like 0.01%. But there are no numbers, so an objective determination of "unreliable" is unsupportable.


"Good" is not a government standard. I got no beef with your opinion here, but by 2015 the US fleet average has to be at 54.5 mpg -- more than twice what you're getting now. They won't get there with straight sixes as the base choice -- they have to push large the majority of owners into 4-cylinder cars so the minority of owners can have the kind of high performance that sells the brand. That's the reality. As I told you, this is an industry/political issue, not a BMW issue. Your opportunity to do something about this comes up the first week of November.

If you're lucky and they meet the standard, perhaps at some point they can bring back normally-aspirated sixes as a mid-level offering in the future. Certainly your purchase is as valid as any racing fanboy's purchase and I fully support your goal here.

You can try and justify it all you want, but when a major system fails on a car, which leaves people stranded at best, and in a dangerous situation at worst; is an example of an unreliable car. Reliable cars that get a minor recall issue to replace non-critical component is one thing. Having the engine die while driving, or go into limp mode where it is unsafe to travel on major roads is considered unreliable.

I think you have the dates wrong; it's 2025 that the CAFE goes to 54 MPG. There is no way any manufacturer can meet that standard in 3 model years from now. 2015 model year cars are already going through 1st tier supplier qualification and selection.

So we are in agreement. BMW can try to push me into a 4 cylinder, but I'll shop elsewhere because there are many other manufacturers that have great 4 cylinder turbos too, and at 2/3rds the price.

[MediaArtist]

This thread has really gone off topic. Who cares about the N54 engine? Is the N54 going into the ATS?

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

Is the N54 going into the ATS?

I hope not, I don't need another car on my list of "Cars to avoid like the plague".

In all seriousness though, I'm eager to see the V version of this car.... Could be quite good if they do it right.