[jad03060]

There are numerous reasons why the average vehicle sold in the USA tends to be bigger than those used elsewhere in the world. First, is probably the fact that the US has a pretty stark rail system today, the distances across say the state of Texas is almost like crossing all of Europe, so the distances traveled can be huge in comparison, and the roads tend to be wider than many of the centuries old ones in some European cities, so width isn't as big of a problem. So, flying, given the fairly high costs means that instead of hopping a train and using public transit at the destination is almost a non-starter in the USA for many destinations, so people end up driving. That's one reason why most US vehicles never made a big impact on sales in Europe - they're too big and inefficient. The average American is both taller and wider than the people in many other areas of the world (although some areas are catching up!), so a bigger vehicle is desirable there, too.

The other things are how things like vehicles and the fuel to run them are taxed. The federal fuel tax on gasoline in the USA is $0.18/US gallon, whereas say in England, it's 57.95p/liter, or about $2.97 at today's exchange rate, just for the taxes. Throw in the VAT in England of 20%, and that brings the tax portion of that gallon to more than the typical cost of a gallon of fully taxed gasoline in the USA. Many places in Europe also have a registration fee that is based on how much CO2 produced by the vehicle, so a smaller, more fuel efficient engine becomes almost a requirement for many drivers, and that often calls for a smaller, lighter vehicle as well.

With the advent of more EV and PHEV vehicles, the revenue received from selling fuel, along with the mandated increases in efficiency, have generally not offset the more people on the road and the higher miles they drive. This impacts the monies available to maintain the roadways, and in some places, fund the government.

As a result, while EVs have been seeing incentives to broaden and hasten their acceptance, something will have to give to allow government to maintain the roads they travel on. Whether that's a pay per mile fee collected, or some other thing, and maybe in addition to a carbon tax for those remaining petrochemically fueled vehicles, is a decision that will have to be made, probably sooner than most want. Right now, EV and to a degree PHEV owners are getting a subsidized, free ride when it comes to their use of the roadways. This is good for the environment, but not for the maintenance of the infrastructure needed to continue to have roadways useful to travel over!

Throw in the sometimes heavy tax on purchase of a vehicle can double its cost compared to the same thing sold in the USA, smaller, cheaper, more efficient vehicles are more common elsewhere.

Just food for thought. You need to take a more world versus parochial view to help understand the reasons things are the way they are.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by jad03060

There are numerous reasons why the average vehicle sold in the USA tends to be bigger than those used elsewhere in the world. ... You need to take a more world versus parochial view to help understand the reasons things are the way they are.

Nice post, though I'd mention that SUVs are the largest growing segment in the EU, so it appears the EU is following US trends ... which I think will accelerate with BEVs

[45e21]

Yes, the “use tax” based on miles driven annually should be a fair way for everyone to share the burden. In fact the federal fuel tax has acted as “use tax” since gasoline has been the only fuel available till recently. Since electricity used for charging EVs at home cannot be distinguished from electricity used for other household usage, it can't be charged as “fuel tax” through the utility company. Indeed food for some thought.

[G Whizz UK]

Originally Posted by jad03060

The federal fuel tax on gasoline in the USA is $0.18/US gallon, whereas say in England, it's 57.95p/liter, or about $2.97 at today's exchange rate, just for the taxes. Throw in the VAT in England of 20%, and that brings the tax portion of that gallon to more than the typical cost of a gallon of fully taxed gasoline in the USA.

Yep. It's painful. My local garage is currently £1.44/l for diesel - that's $7.55 US gallon, and not even for premium. During the recent shortage, it hit $8.03.
It costs currently £1910 (c. $2,600) in first year road tax, then £490 ($670) a year after. No idea how that compares to elsewhere!


I think you raise many interesting differences, and there are many, many more. For example, many EU countries have committed to banning the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2030, with many like Norway giving generous tax breaks & incentives to move to electric. Doesn't mean it fully works though - while Oslo is full of Teslas, come the weekend rush to the cabins in the country, it's nose to nose Volvo's!

[X5M50D]

Interesting topic!
I'm always amazed when visiting the USA how many super large vehicles you have on the freeways which are in themselves immense.
The UK is following the EU in that they are looking at banning the sale of petrol and diesel vehicles by 2030 - not sure how that will happen in such a short period?
Before I bought my X7 I was looking at buying electric, however the problem in the UK and more in the EU is the lack of infrastructure to cater for them. Personally I think it is too early to go electric until the government pulls out all the stops and builds a better infrastructure system.
Taxes are high in the UK on fuel and the purchase of new cars and incentives to buy electric are getting stronger. So I suppose that's a good thing for the future of electric.
I'm going to keep my large SUV for 5 years hoping things will improve towards buying electric in that time!

[Bucksn6]

If the US were to announce a ban on gasoline engines, I'd buy the biggest engine in the nicest car I could afford. To each their own, but I cannot see myself driving electric. It makes no sense to me. The process of making electricity isn't green anyway. Not to mention, driving 2/3 of the range and then having to wait 30 mins or more to recharge just to do it again. Effectively kills long road trips. All that aside, I love the sound, smell, and feeling of a nice big gasoline engine.

[iceRN09]

The US will not ban ICE as a lot of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are paid for by energy companies. Also the railway infrastructure model wont work for Americans living outside cities. 1. Cars gives Americans freedom to go where they want to go. Anything that funnels people in decreases freedom as railways are the same as airports. They are surveiled. 2. Cheaper gas. 3. People will fly rather than take the train. 4. Trains dont offer private space without breaking the bank like a car does

[Wait What?]

Originally Posted by G Whizz UK

I think you raise many interesting differences, and there are many, many more. For example, many EU countries have committed to banning the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2030, with many like Norway giving generous tax breaks & incentives to move to electric.

This is a very interesting thread. How is the 2030 ban on ICE cars going to implemented? I guess that will only apply to new vehicles, right? What I'm saying is, what happens to those in the EU/UK who in 2030 will still have a gas or diesel car, will they still be able to drive them and (I would think?) sell them as used cars if someone is interested in buying them?

As you said, this is going to be a pretty radical change that is going to affect millions of people and is coming in a relatively short timeframe!

[taek]

I'm always amazed when visiting the USA how many super large vehicles you have on the freeways which are in themselves immense.

Yes we have bigger roads here. And we also drive twice the distance as Europeans and have bigger families here compared to a country like Germany. There's also a perception that SUVs are safer than smaller cars, and people want their kids in a bigger/safer vehicle. Whether true or not, people think American/European heavy SUVs are will fare better in a collision vs a small car. IIHS death data says there's some truth to this.

But a huge reason why there are so many SUVs (and pickups) here is because of CAFE requirements. Pre Cafe the common family hauler in the US was a station wagon and a pickup was a no frills work vehicle. These days US brands are creating SUVs to haul families and Pickups as comfortable and fast sport vehicles. This is because these fall under Light Duty Trucks, while a station wagon is a Passenger Car.

The 2021 cafe target for a mid size car (eg Camry) is 43 mpg. The cafe target for any reasonably sized SUV is 25 or 27 mpg. The SUVs are much easier to get to target, a X5 40i already gets 26 highway. A Toyota Camry gets 33 highway. And in 4 years, that Camry has to get 51.7 highway. It will be much easier for SUVs to hit their #s. And the bigger the SUV is, the lower the gas mileage it needs to get.

The car brands are highly incentivized if they care about the US market to put the best features, best interiors, and aggressive pricing on SUVs and make them their flagship products and their top product in marketing campaigns.

[G Whizz UK]

Originally Posted by Wait What?

This is a very interesting thread. How is the 2030 ban on ICE cars going to implemented? I guess that will only apply to new vehicles, right? What I'm saying is, what happens to those in the EU/UK who in 2030 will still have a gas or diesel car, will they still be able to drive them and (I would think?) sell them as used cars if someone is interested in buying them?

As you said, this is going to be a pretty radical change that is going to affect millions of people and is coming in a relatively short timeframe!

Not my area of expertise, but yes, my understanding is new cars only. However, a growing number of cities are introducing congestion and/or emission charges to enter the city. I would imagine it'd be a two pronged approach - presumably at some point it'll be just too expensive to keep older cars.

[YuicyYumboYack]

Great topic. As someone who owns the 45e and will inevitably purchase a BEV, I'm all for taxing EVs, as long as it's done fairly (easier said than done).

Some states are implementing additional fees when registering an EV, but the problem is that the fees far outweigh what an ICE vehicle pays in fuel tax. Without doing the math again, I think it was something like en EV driver would have to drive double the annual average for the fees to become equivalent.

However, as you mentioned jad03060 I got a massive tax credit, so can't complain.

[Bearco]

Originally Posted by Bucksn6

If the US were to announce a ban on gasoline engines, I'd buy the biggest engine in the nicest car I could afford. To each their own, but I cannot see myself driving electric. It makes no sense to me. The process of making electricity isn't green anyway. Not to mention, driving 2/3 of the range and then having to wait 30 mins or more to recharge just to do it again. Effectively kills long road trips. All that aside, I love the sound, smell, and feeling of a nice big gasoline engine.

My job has me on the road a lot where current EV's, even long range ones, won't really work for me. Until a majority of hotels have charging stations, I'll be in the ICE boat. I would have ordered the 45e, but I wanted DHP and B&W

That being said, I know people that have gone on long road trips in electric cars. There are more and more charging stations that have convenient amenities, like coffee shops, places to eat, etc. So spending 30min at a fast charger isn't as painful.

[YuicyYumboYack]

Originally Posted by Bucksn6

If the US were to announce a ban on gasoline engines, I'd buy the biggest engine in the nicest car I could afford. To each their own, but I cannot see myself driving electric. It makes no sense to me. The process of making electricity isn't green anyway. Not to mention, driving 2/3 of the range and then having to wait 30 mins or more to recharge just to do it again. Effectively kills long road trips. All that aside, I love the sound, smell, and feeling of a nice big gasoline engine.

Fair, making electricity is not green, but it's more green than producing gasoline. People often forget that transporting fuel also has a big impact and conveniently leave that out when arguing that powering a car with electricity is worse.

However, I'm with you on the recharging thing. I think eventually it'll get to a point where charging will be fast enough where the difference is negligible, but who knows how long that will take.

[goobies818]

Originally Posted by Bearco

My job has me on the road a lot where current EV's, even long range ones, won't really work for me. Until a majority of hotels have charging stations, I'll be in the ICE boat. I would have ordered the 45e, but I wanted DHP and B&W

That being said, I know people that have gone on long road trips in electric cars. There are more and more charging stations that have convenient amenities, like coffee shops, places to eat, etc. So spending 30min at a fast charger isn't as painful.

I agree...my main concern is charging speed. Even at 30 mins...i think that is too long..even on a long road trip that necessitates breaks

Why?

Because every other EV traveling on the same highway (either direction too) will also need to juice up. So...holiday road trips (ie: Thanksgiving) can lead to waiting in line for a charge...before you're waiting for the car to charge.

If the charge time to get something like 200 miles of range falls under 10 minutes (consistently at almost any charger out there...not just a few cherry picked super-duper chargers) then i think i'd strongly consider an EV. The speed and efficency of a recharge has to come close to that of a gas pump for me. And yes...i know you can charge the car at home overnight on the cheap and yadda yadda...but if i'm on a road trip...and i still have 375 miles to go to my destination...each stop..i just want to empty my bladder and fill my tank and keep pressing on.

[Chick Webb]

Originally Posted by G Whizz UK

For example, many EU countries have committed to banning the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2030, with many like Norway giving generous tax breaks & incentives to move to electric. Doesn't mean it fully works though - while Oslo is full of Teslas, come the weekend rush to the cabins in the country, it's nose to nose Volvo's!

California has raised the gas tax, changed the yearly registration fee so that it's fixed by the value of the vehicle at the time of purchase and no longer decreases as it depreciates, and has a pilot "miles-driven" tax program going. All of that is in response to 1) lower revenues from ICE vehicles due to the lower percentage of them on the road, and 2) their desire to be "leaders" in the fight against climate change. Driven, of course, by their insatiable appetite for our money.

The state has also banned the sale of most new ICE vehicles after 2030. And just last week our loathsome governor signed a new law (AB 1346) that will ban the sale of all so-called Small Off-Road Engines (SOREs) of 25 hp or less after 2024(!). So, no more ICE leaf blowers, lawn mowers (including riding mowers), outboard motors for boats, generators, etc., etc. Not quite sure how that's going to work, but I have no doubt it will further raise the cost of living in this once-great state.

[Bearco]

Originally Posted by Chick Webb

California has raised the gas tax, changed the yearly registration fee so that it's fixed by the value of the vehicle at the time of purchase and no longer decreases as it depreciates, and has a pilot "miles-driven" tax program going. All of that is in response to 1) lower revenues from ICE vehicles due to the lower percentage of them on the road, and 2) their desire to be "leaders" in the fight against climate change. Driven, of course, by their insatiable appetite for our money.

The state has also banned the sale of most new ICE vehicles after 2030. And just last week our loathsome governor signed a new law (AB 1346) that will ban the sale of all so-called Small Off-Road Engines (SOREs) of 25 hp or less after 2022(!). So, no more ICE leaf blowers, lawn mowers (including riding mowers), outboard motors for boats, generators, etc., etc. Not quite sure how that's going to work, but I have no doubt it will further raise the cost of living in this once-great state.

The solution is easy, your next generator will have 26hp. /s

I remember my dad telling me how when he moved to CA in the 70's, the air in LA was horrible and you could literally see the difference when more pollution control was put into place.

I'm all for clean air, but I think that new law is pushing it. I guess someone would have to enact something like it eventually with the direction our climate is going. They should use incentives for green tech a little longer before they rip that bandaid off!

[goobies818]

Originally Posted by Bearco

The solution is easy, your next generator will have 26hp. /s

I remember my dad telling me how when he moved to CA in the 70's, the air in LA was horrible and you could literally see the difference when more pollution control was put into place.

I'm all for clean air, but I think that new law is pushing it. I guess someone would have to enact something like it eventually with the direction our climate is going. They should use incentives for green tech a little longer before they rip that bandaid off!

I agree...we need to take measures to not be frogs sitting in a pot of eventually boiling water.

I remember the days growing up in LA and we coudn't go outside for recess due to "smog alerts" where the air was so soupy we couldn't even see across the other side of the playground clearly.

Or better yet...back when gas stations offered "Leaded" gasoline at the pump...pretty sure every one can now agree...in hindsight that wasn't such a good idea (that...along with leaded paint)

But i do see where our politicians are a bit foolish on their countermeasures as to how we are attacking pollution. Leafblowers? I mean...how much are we really making a dent in the grand scheme of things here? i know every bit counts but to go after these small but immaterial wins just reeks of grandstanding.

[dananelson1]

Infrastructure is the main concern for many. The availability of chargers will continue to increase, charging technology, and range will increase. This is part of the growing pains.

Currently, there is nano cell technology being tested that would bump up range by 2-3x (so think 500-700 mile range); and charge to 80% in under 5mins. This will roll out into consumer electronics first. Apple, in fact, is working on nano tech for their products to charge in under 60 seconds and allow phones to last 5 days or more. Once confirmed, it will roll into vehicles.

The industry is well aware that in order to have mass adaptation, range anxiety and time inefficiency need to be squashed. And, the whole eco lifecycle of the battery need to be improved; ex. Cobalt free batteries, etc. (again, in development).
Per the tea leaves, It's all coming . . .

[goobies818]

Originally Posted by dananelson1

Infrastructure is the main concern for many. The availability of chargers will continue to increase, charging technology, and range will increase. This is part of the growing pains.

Currently, there is nano cell technology being tested that would bump up range by 2-3x (so think 500-700 mile range); and charge to 80% in under 5mins. This will roll out into consumer electronics first. Apple, in fact, is working on nano tech for their products to charge in under 60 seconds and allow phones to last 5 days or more. Once confirmed, it will roll into vehicles.

The industry is well aware that in order to have mass adaptation, range anxiety and time inefficiency need to be squashed. And, the whole eco lifecycle of the battery need to be improved; ex. Cobalt free batteries, etc. (again, in development).
Per the tea leaves, It's all coming . . .

That sounds promising...but i think the approach of trying to make these cars drive crazy long distances on a charge is not what we should aim for...my X5 can probably muster up 375 highway miles or so on a tank (haven't tried a roadtrip just yet...2 weeks before we set off) and that's plenty of distance...the thing is...once my car tells me she's hungry...a) i know have have tremendous flexibility to keep going to a certain extent as i know gas stations are plentiful along the route most times b) once i get to a station...a pump will certainly be available for me 24 hours a day...in a well lit and safe place (same cannot be said of charging stations universally right now) and c) i can fuel up and get going again in about 5-10 mins max.

Once EVs can do that...i'm prob on board

[jad03060]

On my first and only so far road trip with my 45e, I could have gone over 500-miles the first day starting with a full battery. Did not have many opportunities to charge it along the way, but refueling was quick and easy as was expected. Given prior to that trip I had done nearly 80% of my miles in EV mode, I've been more than pleased.

Yes, the battery tech is evolving in energy density, recharging speed, and longevity. Depending on where you live a BEV can work for you but I also wanted to be able to tow a trailer, and on a trip, that would be a major pain both in the decreased range, and the space required as you'd probably have to disconnect each time to make room!

[YuicyYumboYack]

Originally Posted by goobies818

I agree...we need to take measures to not be frogs sitting in a pot of eventually boiling water.

I remember the days growing up in LA and we coudn't go outside for recess due to "smog alerts" where the air was so soupy we couldn't even see across the other side of the playground clearly.

Or better yet...back when gas stations offered "Leaded" gasoline at the pump...pretty sure every one can now agree...in hindsight that wasn't such a good idea (that...along with leaded paint)

But i do see where our politicians are a bit foolish on their countermeasures as to how we are attacking pollution. Leafblowers? I mean...how much are we really making a dent in the grand scheme of things here? i know every bit counts but to go after these small but immaterial wins just reeks of grandstanding.

Ok, but you have to admit, the sound of leafblowers is seriously annoying lol

[jad03060]

God forbid that leaf blower has a 2-cycle engine!