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      09-10-2019, 06:48 PM   #23
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Batteries - No!
Hydrogen Fuel Cell - Yes!

Why?

Batteries - Not healthy, slow charging, poor range, bad for environment (from their manufacturing to the grid power generation needed to charge them).

Hydrogen Fuel Cell - Healthy, fast refilling, good range, truly environmentally friendly.
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      09-10-2019, 08:13 PM   #24
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Hydrogen is being pushed by Japanese, Toyota and Honda are both on board for their home markets, not sure if there are similar government initiatives at other countries (if China is on board then all bets off, not sure it can take off quickly but least a whole supply chain will get developed further/quicker).

I mean for battery powered car I can at least pay a electrician $1k? To install wall charger (assuming you're not street parked..., even shit garage in nyc are start to get chargers) and at least for local I'm all good, and I can always charge overnight.

how many hydrogen fueling station currently exist and expect to come online? I can't imagine the best option to refuel is go to a hydrogen station 100 miles away every week...

I mean given time anything can happen, but at least for now the battery setup is an easier option
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      09-10-2019, 08:51 PM   #25
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wow!
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      09-11-2019, 08:55 AM   #26
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It's worth emphasizing that, as noted in the writeup, the vehicle in this thread is still an EV. It just happens to use hydrogen as its power source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_vehicle

Quote:
A fuel cell vehicle (FCV) or fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV) is a type of electric vehicle which uses a fuel cell, instead of a battery, or in combination with a battery or supercapacitor, to power its on-board electric motor.
By contrast, BMW's previous hydrogen concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

was not an EV. It was a hydrogen ICE vehicle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrog...engine_vehicle

Quote:
A hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicle (HICEV) is a type of hydrogen vehicle using an internal combustion engine. Hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles are different from hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (which use electrochemical conversion of hydrogen rather than combustion); the hydrogen internal combustion engine is simply a modified version of the traditional gasoline-powered internal combustion engine.
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      09-11-2019, 09:19 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Please enlighten us. What successful "real" EV does Toyota have which isn't a hybrid?
So, what you are saying is they picked the wrong partner?
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      09-11-2019, 09:44 AM   #28
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Hello X5M.
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      09-11-2019, 10:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Please enlighten us. What successful EV does Toyota have which isn't a hybrid?
You are right, Toyota is betting on FCEVs not on BEVs. They are just biding time manufacturing a few BEVs in the coming years to be on the electrification stream, but that's temporary until they finish their hydrogen vehicle development. And for Lexus they will keep on the hybrid side until then. This comes from a good source inside Toyota.
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      09-14-2019, 09:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
This.

What would really be awesome is if BMW took electrification seriously like other manufacturers are. And, by "seriously", I mean at least 250 miles of electric range. Let's get that done first, Ok?
In this moment, the range is given by the battery capacity. With the fuel cell technology, you have on board of your car, a power generator. This can be refilled in 5 mins, like actual petrol or diesel tanks. So, compare this with the actual re-fill times of EVs (45 ti 120 mins)....
I think this technology is great.... all you need to sort out is the chain of H2 supplies..
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      09-14-2019, 02:17 PM   #31
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Hydrogen Fuel Cell is a dead end - yup, that's my prediction.
I hope BMW would wake up and divert its resources elsewhere.

Sometimes it may seem like a good idea to play safe and place bets in all options. But you get the most rewards to be bold and stop wasting time and resources in tech with no future.
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      09-14-2019, 07:42 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosnoop View Post
Hydrogen Fuel Cell is a dead end - yup, that's my prediction.
I hope BMW would wake up and divert its resources elsewhere.

Sometimes it may seem like a good idea to play safe and place bets in all options. But you get the most rewards to be bold and stop wasting time and resources in tech with no future.
And the basis for your prediction is ...?
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      09-15-2019, 09:13 AM   #33
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I don't think anyone can accurately predict what future transportation energy sources will be. Horses and coal come to mind, a couple of hundred years ago, when a gasoline-powered conveyence was unimaginable. So maximum diversity is a good thing. Note the timeframe though....
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      09-16-2019, 12:27 AM   #34
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2014 BMW X5  [0.00]
a little teaser by BMW perhaps?
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      09-16-2019, 09:39 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVB G20 View Post
In this moment, the range is given by the battery capacity. With the fuel cell technology, you have on board of your car, a power generator. This can be refilled in 5 mins, like actual petrol or diesel tanks. So, compare this with the actual re-fill times of EVs (45 ti 120 mins)....
I think this technology is great.... all you need to sort out is the chain of H2 supplies..
But I don't need "a chain of H2 supplies". Hell, I don't even need a chain of charging stations. Like me, over 70% of EV users charge at home. The whole thing that makes EVs so attractive (for me at least) is all I have to do is plug 'em in when I get home (just like my cellphone). I could care less about a whole new chain of anything. If I'm going on a long trip I'm simply taking a different vehicle...
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      09-16-2019, 05:36 PM   #36
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I thought the whole hydrogen thing was dead. Whatever it takes to get off fossil fuel's and to offer cooler looking, better performing longer term reliable cars and SAVs!
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      09-17-2019, 10:04 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
Like me, over 70% of EV users charge at home.
Yes.

Quote:
If I'm going on a long trip I'm simply taking a different vehicle...
And which vehicle might that be? You clearly refer to some type of ICE vehicle.

That's certainly a viable solution for right now, but that is still kicking the proverbial can down the road. The rationale for investing in hydrogen fuel cell technology today is to attempt to solve for the problem when ICE vehicles are no longer viable technology (they will eventually fall to regulatory constraints).

When it comes to batteries vs. fuels cells - it does not have to be an either/or proposition. While it is true that battery technology continues to advance, bringing charge times down and energy density up, it is not absolutely clear at this point that such progress will lead to BEV replacements for every last one of today's ICE applications.

For example, there is interest in FCEV solutions from the transportation industry, and such interest is likely to result in heavy investments over the course of the next decade. This could lead to proliferation of the technology, including more widespread infrastructure, and as costs come down, it may find its way into other sectors. It is too early to say for sure how the story unfolds, but I would suggest that there is a chance yet that some future BMWs or other consumer motor vehicles are powered by hydrogen.
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      09-17-2019, 03:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Yes.

And which vehicle might that be? You clearly refer to some type of ICE vehicle.
Yup. Either my GMC Denali 2500 Diesel (M4 Track Car Tow Vehicle) or my BMW i8. (Although I'm only taking the i8 Roadster if I'm traveling alone and don't need to pack anything more than my lunch...)

I've bought all the EV's I have owned as daily drivers. I bought them because they are MORE convenient than a vehicle that needs to be filled up at a fuel station (gas, diesel, or hydrogen, or LNG)! I just plug the EV in when I get home (like my cell phone) and its ready to go with all the range I need for daily driving.

You can't do that with anything that needs to be filled up with a liquid or gaseous fuel. (Unless/Until they figure out how to fuel vehicles at home with Natural Gas).
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      09-17-2019, 09:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
You can't do that with anything that needs to be filled up with a liquid or gaseous fuel.
And you can’t drive a battery powered vehicle long distances without stopping for extended periods to charge it. That’s the trade off, and as I explained above, that’s why a fuel cell makes sense for certain applications.

Quote:
(Unless/Until they figure out how to fuel vehicles at home with Natural Gas).
They figured that our over a decade ago:

http://www.cngnow.com/vehicles/refue...g-at-home.aspx

But we’re in a tangent, at best.

The fact remains FCEVs don’t need to be refuel-able at home to be viable any more than ICE vehicles did. Just like battery BEVs don’t need to be able to go from NY to LA with sub ten minute stops every 400 miles to be viable.
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      Yesterday, 03:57 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
...And you can’t drive a battery powered vehicle long distances without stopping for extended periods to charge it. That’s the trade off, and as I explained above, that’s why a fuel cell makes sense for certain applications....
I think you miss my point...

Hydrogen powered vehicles require fill ups at stations just like ICE vehicles. They lose the advantage that EV's have of just plugging in at home. The biggest advantage my EV has is I DON'T have to visit any filling stations...

I use my EV as a daily driver, and my ICE for long trips. Hydrogen doesn't offer me anything here...
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      Yesterday, 09:46 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
I think you miss my point...
You’re mistaken. The purpose of my post (#37) was to explain why hydrogen fuel cells make sense for some applications. Automakers are investing into the technology now, so that it may be mature when it becomes necessary later.

Quote:
I use my EV as a daily driver, and my ICE for long trips. Hydrogen doesn't offer me anything here...
That’s works today, but not tomorrow. I was specifically addressing future-state, when your ICE will not exist, and future you (or future someone-else-very-similar-to-you if future you has given up the ghost) will need to go take those same long trips you do today. An FCEV could be the answer. Your lack of interest in the technology now isn’t unexpected, but BMW’s intention was never to try to sell you on it now anyway. They are playing the long game, ready to have product ready when all of the GMC Denali 2500 Diesels are but distant memories of a bygone era.
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