[ward]

plus, the E90 never raped a hotel employee in colorado!!

[heezyo2o]

Interesting analogy about kobe and jordan, but are you guys saying that the e90 is the jordan of cars....

About the lexus, why is the IS250 offered in a manual, but not the IS350? Would a manual be expected to be offered on the 350 in the future?

[davinet78]

the bmw is the bench mark and thats good to know

[scottz5]

Originally Posted by bookman2

Stop light to stop light running is a very limited form of "real world" driving and is largely useless in determing the true performance envelope of a car. The real world also consists of relatively empty stretches of open road with twists and turns (the 330i's element) that require a vehicle's chasis and brakes to clear their throats. What will any of the vehicles you mention do with a 330i on its tail when the time comes to turn? There're turns in the real world I presume?

Maybe where you live, not in NJ.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by heezyo2o

Interesting analogy about kobe and jordan, but are you guys saying that the e90 is the jordan of cars....

About the lexus, why is the IS250 offered in a manual, but not the IS350? Would a manual be expected to be offered on the 350 in the future?

No, it is highly unlikely- we're just screwed.

[jiggax23]

Originally Posted by Nikki

IMPORTANT UPDATE:

Car & Driver's statistics for the IS350 are INCORRECT. They made a very bad mistake and added on a full second to both the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times! Road & Track tested the IS350 0-60 at 6.0 seconds and the 1/4 mile at 14.5 seconds. This means that the correct Car & Driver stats should be 0-60 in 6.1 NOT 5.1 seconds and the 1/4 mile time is 14.7 NOT 13.7 seconds.

Now it makes sense.

I dont get how you can go around claiming this with nothing to back it up rather than "the other magazines got different times, so this time must be wrong." I dont doubt for one second that these numbers are false. I dont get why so many of you have to get so defensive when some numbers come out that beat your car. Theres always someone bigger and badder than you. If you wanna be the baddest m-f around, go buy an enzo.

[ward]

the IS isn't even available yet,

it's altogether possible that they gave the magazine a ringer, or a car that'd been blueprinted in every way possible.

cars are built to such close tolerances that you won't just accidentaly get a car that's a full second faster than all the rest.

5.1 is not a real number to me until I see similar times from other tests

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by jiggax23

I dont get how you can go around claiming this with nothing to back it up rather than "the other magazines got different times, so this time must be wrong." I dont doubt for one second that these numbers are false. I dont get why so many of you have to get so defensive when some numbers come out that beat your car. Theres always someone bigger and badder than you. If you wanna be the baddest m-f around, go buy an enzo.

Lexus, Edmunds, and Road & Track all had similar numbers. Car & Driver's numbers were off by a full second in their 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. That is a HUGE difference, therefor, it is obviously a mistake.

[ward]

Originally Posted by luxman999

C&D should include "Initial Quality" category in the comparison test. If so, BMW 330i should gotten 0 for their list of problems and it should been out of the first place. For a over $40K brand new, these problems are totally unforgivable! No excuse and no 'but-the-BMW-still-handles-best' BS crap.

Let's face it. For average car buyers, the initial and long-term quality factor is one of the most important factor in deciding a car.

How 330i still managed to win first despite all the problems? C&D editors are full of crap and I'm sure they picked 330i as first place even before the test began. They probably still gave 330i first place even if it caught on fire...

Their recent comparison test between 400hp Pontiac GTO vs. 300hp Mustang revealed to the entire world how stupid their rating system is. Despite GTO won over Mustang in every performance and most non-performance category, they still gave Mustang 25 perfect score for "Got-A-Have-It" factor while giving GTO only 18. The final score of 211 vs. 210 gave 1st plae to Mustang. Reason? Well, they already picked the Mustang in their Top 10 Cars of Year, so they HAD TO pick it over GTO. It was comparison test between two full-blooded sport cars and Mustang still won after losing all performance category.....Never seen so much BS.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=8908

the mustang had better handling than the GTO in every handling category, the GTO did NOT sweep that test yet still manage to lose

also you can't ding the whole breed for just one example, all 3 series don't have abs failures and such. They're testing which car is better overall, not which of these 7 particular individual cars is higher quality. (seriously, they probably had the cars all of a week MAX, who knows if the lex caught fire 2 days after they gave it back)

[jiggax23]

Originally Posted by Nikki

Lexus, Edmunds, and Road & Track all had similar numbers. Car & Driver's numbers were off by a full second in their 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. That is a HUGE difference, therefor, it is obviously a mistake.

C&D posted a 0-60 time almost a full second faster than other publications, so i guess C&D's 0-60 time must be wrong as well. Then again, those who are calling BS on this matter are the same who are quick to bring up C&D got a 5.4s 0-60 or whatever they posted in the e90 when other people are saying it runs 6.3s as stated by the manufacturer.

[Red]

In BMW's defense, it's easy for a company like Lexus to purchase a Bimmer, take it apart, evaluate and attempt to mechanically DUPLICATE what makes BMW's a superb road machine. But there's a lot to be said about inovation. I think CD editors consciously put this in the mix.

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by jiggax23

C&D posted a 0-60 time almost a full second faster than other publications, so i guess C&D's 0-60 time must be wrong as well. Then again, those who are calling BS on this matter are the same who are quick to bring up C&D got a 5.4s 0-60 or whatever they posted in the e90 when other people are saying it runs 6.3s as stated by the manufacturer.

Not to be a nit-picker, but it was 5.6 seconds to 60 as claimed by Car & Driver and 6.1 seconds as claimed by BMW (the manufacturer).

So as you can see, not the same drastic difference....its about half.

[bmw330ipty]

Originally Posted by ward

plus, the E90 never raped a hotel employee in colorado!!

Kobe never raped anybody. It was mutually consented sex.

[stressdoc]

I agree with Tima: The IS350/250 are a serious challenge in the USA market. The appropriate response is the 335i and 320d/330d/335d. Those are niches the IS cannot touch -- although I guess a hybrid IS is a possibility.

The point system used by C&D is highly subjective -- e.g., the E90 victory hinged on its 9 pt. score on "exterior styling" vs. the 8 pt. rating for the Lexus. I adore bimmers, but a 9 for exterior style? Versus the Lexus' 8? If you want an automatic I think most buyers will choose the IS. The huge 0-60 gap, and the reported reliability issues, make Lexus the effective winner of this comparo. Not going to change my choice -- I want a stick and the great handling that BMWs have over Lexus. Given the high % of USA sales that are Steptronic, the E90, and hence BMW, is in trouble.

[CC 330i]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

I agree with Tima: The IS350/250 are a serious challenge in the USA market. The appropriate response is the 335i and 320d/330d/335d. Those are niches the IS cannot touch -- although I guess a hybrid IS is a possibility.

The point system used by C&D is highly subjective -- e.g., the E90 victory hinged on its 10 pt. score on "exterior styling" vs. the 8 pt. rating for the Lexus. I adore bimmers, but a 10 for exterior style? Versus the Lexus' 8? If you want an auto I think most buyers will choose the E90. The huge 0-60 gap, and the reported reliability issues, make Lexus the effective winner of this comparo. Not going to change my choice -- I want a stick and the great handling that BMWs have over Lexus. Given the high % of USA sales that are Steptronic, the E90, and hence BMW, is in trouble.

I have to agree. I think the Lexus looks pretty nice, and looks are subjective. I know everyone is always knocking Lexus for driving feel, but what would you say if I said that the E36 had better handling feel than the E90? Seems like we might be going backward there. Heck, my 1983 GTI had better road feel than my E90.

I am not too worried about BMW losing the benchmark status. If that happens, it simply means that there are better cars out there. In the end, the consumer will win because as the competition improves, so will BMW have to improve. If BMW is no longer the benchmark 5 years from now, well, then I will have to buy something else. The only people that really need to worry about something else being better than a BMW are BMW employees.

[Robert]

My thought exactly. Majority of 3 series drivers are for the marque and would not care for the extra performance edge. As long as BMW keep its brand name up I dont think it's in immediate danger to Lexus. That said the new IS is a potent competitor. The manual IS350 will come eventually following the foot steps of the current IS300. Remember it took them awhile to release the manual IS300? Because the market for manual isn't there. Americans love autos.

Originally Posted by stressdoc

I agree with Tima: The IS350/250 are a serious challenge in the USA market. The appropriate response is the 335i and 320d/330d/335d. Those are niches the IS cannot touch -- although I guess a hybrid IS is a possibility.

The point system used by C&D is highly subjective -- e.g., the E90 victory hinged on its 10 pt. score on "exterior styling" vs. the 8 pt. rating for the Lexus. I adore bimmers, but a 10 for exterior style? Versus the Lexus' 8? If you want an auto I think most buyers will choose the E90. The huge 0-60 gap, and the reported reliability issues, make Lexus the effective winner of this comparo. Not going to change my choice -- I want a stick and the great handling that BMWs have over Lexus. Given the high % of USA sales that are Steptronic, the E90, and hence BMW, is in trouble.

[Nikki]

C&D made another error. Taken from another board:

On the summary page of the article, BMW shows a total of 75 points being scored for "Vehicle". The problem is - they didn't score 75. They scored 74.

8+7+3+4+3+7+9+7+9+0+17= 74 not 75.

That would mean 212 points and tied first position with Lexus.

[luxman999]

Originally Posted by Nikki

C&D made another error. Taken from another board:

OK, now it is official that the C&D test is TIE for both 330i and IS350. I double checked the number myself. The 330i's total points added for the "Vehicle" category should been 74, NOT 75, so the total scores are exactly same for both 330i and IS350.

Somehow I don't believe this was an error. I know C&D editors are biased and dumb, but since they can write they should be smart enough add some number by using calculator or Excel.

I think C&D tried to pull a fast one by slipping in one extra number to justify 330i's win. I always knew that they are biased toward BMW 3 series but this is really low.

About their comparison test, what's with the "As-Tested-Price" with 20 points max? All cars are equipped differently here. Some cars have more options and some has less options. Unless they ordered all cars with exact same options and features, how can they justify rewarding or penalizing based on the as-tested-price? They should instead used the MSRP numbers, which are still not fair numbers (due to the different standard equipments) but better than as-tested-price.

I don't even know why they included the "rebate and discount" with max 5 points. All rebate and discount are for limited-time only and rewarding a car for that is beyond my belief. It has same 5 max points as engine flexibility, fuel economy, STEERING FEEL and brake feel!!!!

[Nikki]

Maybe what happened is maybe C&D realized that they had a tie, so they chose the BMW to win since they didn't want a tie and added a point for one of the total columns but they forgot to add in the individual point?

here is the mistake:

[ward]

who cares if they added the points incorrectly
the points aren't really what it's about, the editors thought the BMW was a better car and that's why they gave it first.

the whole "points" system is just meaningless fluff in general, how do you quantify that a cadilac engine is only 60% as flexible as the BMW engine???

the important things to take from the test are not the numbers, but the editors thoughts and comments about each car. If they thought the lex was as good I'm sure that would show in the editors comments

[YYdoodle]

I'm not intentionally trying to dog the IS350 further, but just read through Road and Track's latest issue which reviews the is350 and they conclude that it's become more of a mini-GS and is actually further from competing with the 3-series than before. R&T got 0-60 of 6.0 seconds, a 14.5 quarter mile and a .80 skidpad if I remember right.

Anyways, we're all magazine bench racing here, the real test will be when I/we can test drive one and see for ourselves.

[ethanthomas]

I've subscribed to C&D since I was 8, their point tally system has been an issue before. The itemized points do not necessarily add up to the catagory total, I can't remember exactly why, but it doesn't have anything to do with a BMW bias.

Tally the CTS for the same catagory, S/B 71.

Bottom line- C&D perferred the 330i over the others, and I don't see BMW losing any market share in the sports sedan genre, but Audi might have a reason to be worried.