[ikke123]

I've had now my BMW X5 45e since October. It is now back again at the dealer for inspection, the second time around.

My car has all the self-driving capabilities.

I have several issues with the car:
- keys no longer recognized by the car
- menu options disappearing and not coming back after reset
- losing settings (home address, speed limits)
- driver awareness system not working
- and a few other minors

but the most concerning to me is the security systems; especially collision avoidance.

Dealer keeps telling me that the car does NOT brake by itself nor that it does automatically try avoid an obstacle. It does also not detect pedestrians crossing the street. Apparently the steering wheel is by design not supposed to shake in the event of an imminent danger.

Is that correct?

I use the self-driving or adaptive cruise control all the time. That is the reason why I bought this one to replace my X6.

I've had numerous incidents since the last time they looked at it that make me not trust the car:
- automatic acceleration (speed limit increase from zone 50 to 70km/h) with vehicle in front at standstill or slowly moving; car does not decelarate; red car icon comes on screen; I have to perform an emergency stop to avoid crash (with flash lights automatically triggered)
- red car warning doesn't show up
- pedestrian crossing street not being detected at all although straight street and zero obstacles. Compare that to the BMW video about that safety feature, in my experience it does not operate like that.

BTW also very poor UI design by BMW: when you have the HUD then any imminent warnings are not shown on the HUD. If your steering wheel does not shake then the only thing telling you something is wrong is a sound effect.

So I am hoping that there are some expert fans here who can help me out as it seems to be an argument I can't win. Am I wrong in believing that the car with all the safety options activated (early settings) should self brake, try to avoid obstacle and detect pedestrians?

[Heavyd]

Originally Posted by ikke123

I've had now my BMW X5 45e since October. It is now back again at the dealer for inspection, the second time around.

My car has all the self-driving capabilities.

I have several issues with the car:
- keys no longer recognized by the car
- menu options disappearing and not coming back after reset
- losing settings (home address, speed limits)
- driver awareness system not working
- and a few other minors

but the most concerning to me is the security systems; especially collision avoidance.

Dealer keeps telling me that the car does NOT brake by itself nor that it does automatically try avoid an obstacle. It does also not detect pedestrians crossing the street. Apparently the steering wheel is by design not supposed to shake in the event of an imminent danger.

Is that correct?

I use the self-driving or adaptive cruise control all the time. That is the reason why I bought this one to replace my X6.

I've had numerous incidents since the last time they looked at it that make me not trust the car:
- automatic acceleration (speed limit increase from zone 50 to 70km/h) with vehicle in front at standstill or slowly moving; car does not decelarate; red car icon comes on screen; I have to perform an emergency stop to avoid crash (with flash lights automatically triggered)
- red car warning doesn't show up
- pedestrian crossing street not being detected at all although straight street and zero obstacles. Compare that to the BMW video about that safety feature, in my experience it does not operate like that.

BTW also very poor UI design by BMW: when you have the HUD then any imminent warnings are not shown on the HUD. If your steering wheel does not shake then the only thing telling you something is wrong is a sound effect.

So I am hoping that there are some expert fans here who can help me out as it seems to be an argument I can't win. Am I wrong in believing that the car with all the safety options activated (early settings) should self brake, try to avoid obstacle and detect pedestrians?

If I activate the adaptive cruise control the car brakes by itself. Even for a bike or pedestrian. Even my F16 did that.
That it can avoid obstacles by steering around it I don't know. I have seen a video of a 7 serie doing that but I don't know the G05 is capable of doing it.

I never had the car accelerate by itself when something was in front of it.

[X5 45e]

Even without activating your CC auto braking should work in emergency situations. This was the most important reason for me to chose ACC.

So with ACC you should definitely have automatic braking.

It saved me in my last car 2 times when I didn't notice a traffic jam om the highway. Auto braking with highway speeds only works whit the ACC radar.

It was even activated today when a truck crossed the road on a B road and it didn't completely clear my part of the road.

Also emergency evacuation is available. So the car wil manoeuvre the in a safe spot in emergencies.

[Heavyd]

Maybe you should give the manual to the dealer

[X5 45e]

When I drive to close to the car in front of me I get first car with careful sign then a big red car en emergency sound.

It sounds there is definitely something wrong with your car.

The only thing I had was that I was on ACC, the car in front of me moved to the next lane before a trafic light, my car started to accelerate but the other cars in front were still not moving. Time enough to brake but I don't know what would have happened if I didn't.

So all emergency functions should work without activating ACC even on the lowest setting. They only don't work if you switch them off your self.

Of your other issues up till now I only had the forgetting of home adress and settings

[ikke123]

Originally Posted by Heavyd

If I activate the adaptive cruise control the car brakes by itself. Even for a bike or pedestrian. Even my F16 did that.
That it can avoid obstacles by steering around it I don't know. I have seen a video of a 7 serie doing that but I don't know the G05 is capable of doing it.

I never had the car accelerate by itself when something was in front of it.

That is the discussion now with the dealer: does the car autobrake (they say no) or does it merely assist (as they say).

I uninstalled the manual but remember reading that it could autobrake.

Also anyone feedback regarding shaking steering wheel if that actually works?

Pedestrian crossing warning? How does that work on your car?

[X5 45e]

Originally Posted by ikke123

That is the discussion now with the dealer: does the car autobrake (they say no) or does it merely assist (as they say).

I uninstalled the manual but remember reading that it could autobrake.

Also anyone feedback regarding shaking steering wheel if that actually works?

Pedestrian crossing warning? How does that work on your car?

They really don't know what they are talking about. I added the manual to my post.

I never had the pedestrian braking function but I am a careful driver in town

[Heavyd]

Originally Posted by ikke123

That is the discussion now with the dealer: does the car autobrake (they say no) or does it merely assist (as they say).

I uninstalled the manual but remember reading that it could autobrake.

Also anyone feedback regarding shaking steering wheel if that actually works?

Pedestrian crossing warning? How does that work on your car?

What do they mean with assist? It brakes or it brakes not. It definitely brakes by itself!
I get a signal and some flashing lights on my steering wheel. But I think it's an option in idrive for the shaking steering wheel.

[Heavyd]

Originally Posted by X5 45e

They really don't know what they are talking about. I added the manual to my post.

I never had the pedestrian braking function but I am a careful driver in town

I had it once with the F16 when a bicycle came crossing the street out of nowhere. Warning and a bike symbol can't remember if the car did brake because it wasn't super close

[X5 45e]

Originally Posted by Heavyd

What do they mean with assist? It brakes or it brakes not. It definitely brakes by itself!
I get a signal and some flashing lights on my steering wheel. But I think it's an option in idrive for the shaking steering wheel.

Indeed. The flashing light on the steering wheel are also activated. Had that with crossing the lines. And this also activated steering wheel vibration.

[X5 45e]

Originally Posted by ikke123

I've had now my BMW X5 45e since October. It is now back again at the dealer for inspection, the second time around.

My car has all the self-driving capabilities.

I have several issues with the car:
- keys no longer recognized by the car
- menu options disappearing and not coming back after reset
- losing settings (home address, speed limits)
- driver awareness system not working
- and a few other minors

but the most concerning to me is the security systems; especially collision avoidance.

Dealer keeps telling me that the car does NOT brake by itself nor that it does automatically try avoid an obstacle. It does also not detect pedestrians crossing the street. Apparently the steering wheel is by design not supposed to shake in the event of an imminent danger.

Is that correct?

I use the self-driving or adaptive cruise control all the time. That is the reason why I bought this one to replace my X6.

I've had numerous incidents since the last time they looked at it that make me not trust the car:
- automatic acceleration (speed limit increase from zone 50 to 70km/h) with vehicle in front at standstill or slowly moving; car does not decelarate; red car icon comes on screen; I have to perform an emergency stop to avoid crash (with flash lights automatically triggered)
- red car warning doesn't show up
- pedestrian crossing street not being detected at all although straight street and zero obstacles. Compare that to the BMW video about that safety feature, in my experience it does not operate like that.

BTW also very poor UI design by BMW: when you have the HUD then any imminent warnings are not shown on the HUD. If your steering wheel does not shake then the only thing telling you something is wrong is a sound effect.

So I am hoping that there are some expert fans here who can help me out as it seems to be an argument I can't win. Am I wrong in believing that the car with all the safety options activated (early settings) should self brake, try to avoid obstacle and detect pedestrians?

Did you never have steering wheel vibration when someone is in your blind spot or when you cross a line? It should vibrate if you activated it.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by ikke123

That is the discussion now with the dealer: does the car autobrake (they say no) or does it merely assist (as they say).

Your dealer is misleading you but the answer is that it depends on the situation. For example, if you are cruising down the highway and come up on a car stopped in your lane then it will likely not brake. In most instances the way the systems work is that any stopped obstacle is ignored by the software so it isn't stopping for signs, trees etc. This is why you see news stories of Teslas running into fire trucks stopped on the road.

On the other hand, if you are going down a city street and a car crosses in front of you then it should brake.

There are also instances where it detects an imminent crash that it will prep the brakes, assist with brake, tightens seat belts, open windows, etc.

[X5 45e]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Your dealer is misleading you but the answer is that it depends on the situation. For example, if you are cruising down the highway and come up on a car stopped in your lane then it will likely not brake. In most instances the way the systems work is that any stopped obstacle is ignored by the software so it isn't stopping for signs, trees etc. This is why you see news stories of Teslas running into fire trucks stopped on the road.

On the other hand, if you are going down a city street and a car crosses in front of you then it should brake.

There are also instances where it detects an imminent crash that it will prep the brakes, assist with brake, tightens seat belts, open windows, etc.

I am not sure that is correct. How I understand is that it is making an emergency stop when you are a driving to fast in a traffic jam on the highway if you have ACC. If you are going to fast it reduces the speed of impact and if you are not it can do a full stop. Well it should work like that. Maybe sometimes it doesn't.

And this what happened to me. The car gave an alarm and started braking, I started braking too and could stop in time.

Of course every system has it shortcomings.

It also started braking when it shouldn't once when I was driving 50 km/h and a car was parked in the beginning of a corner. It was easy to correct.

Stopping for things next to the road is something different. And nothing is unfailable.

The last part is only when you have the active protection option

[bluetriangle]

Your dealer is wrong, the car can definitely brake by itself.

However it's not always a good thing. I pulled onto a roundabout, just behind a car that was crossing me. In my view there was more than enough room, I didn't feel I was in any danger of hitting it and there was no-one behind the other car but the X5 decided I was too close and braked to a stop - when I was already half into the roundabout. I was very lucky there wasn't an HGV behind that car or another vehicle just behind me.

Needless to say I wasn't happy and immediately turned down the sensitivity to its lowest level.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by X5 45e

I am not sure that is correct. How I understand is that it is making an emergency stop when you are a driving to fast in a traffic jam on the highway if you have ACC. If you are going to fast it reduces the speed of impact and if you are not it can do a full stop. Well it should work like that. Maybe sometimes it doesn't.

And this what happened to me. The car gave an alarm and started braking, I started braking too and could stop in time.

Of course every system has it shortcomings.

It also started braking when it shouldn't once when I was driving 50 km/h and a car was parked in the beginning of a corner. It was easy to correct.

Stopping for things next to the road is something different. And nothing is unfailable.

The last part is only when you have the active protection option

No, it is correct. It is just the way all of these systems work since they use radar they are unlikely to stop for stopped vehicles at highway speed. BMW only states that the X5 has automatic braking at city speeds not highway speeds. ACC does not come into the picture since we are talking about emergency braking or lack thereof. As an aside, ACC will not brake in that situation either from all reports.

Here are a couple of articles that give some detail:

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-au...y-crash-radar/

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06...lane-dividers/

Active protection is a standard feature in the US, not sure about elsewhere.

Edit: I need to correct the statements above. The user manual does say there could be braking intervention up to 130mph with the radar sensor. That could mean the ACC that you were referring to.



Here is the section on limitations and one of them is approaching a slow moving vehicle at a high rate of speed. I think that is the one that pertains to what we have been talking about in regards to coming up on stopped vehicles.

[W0ut]

I never experienced losing settings, home address etc. But I did read quite some post about other people complaining about it.

Keep in mind that all these systems are driving 'aids'. Depending on the road and weather conditions certain systems might fail or be less accurate. BMW (nor Audi, Mercedes, VW, ...) claim their driving aids are flawless. You are still the driver and the responsible

I can 100% confirm that my 45e does all the items mentioned below.

* Always automatically breaks in case of danger. (hard breaking from car in front, a stopped vehicle in traffic jam). Even at highway speeds!

* When looking at my phone I get blings.
Once in a traffic jam I got a bunch of warnings about paying attention. Never was able to replicate this.

* with ACC on. Automatically adjusts speed to flow of traffic.

* with ACC on. Breaks (and warns) for cyclist, pedestrians

* with ACC on. Avoids (parked) obstacles on road. It actively steers away from them. Caught me by surprise several times. (very annoying on roads where cars are partly parked on shoulder and partly on road. *every street n Antwerp and Brussels*)

* when reversing from my driveway onto the street, I get warnings when a car is approaching.


Maybe also relevant:

* always (ACC must not be enabled). Steering wheel is pushing back and vibrates when changing lanes without using indicators (disabled it, very annoying)

* when approaching stop or yield signs. I get a bling to warn me to stop.

* when approaching red light I get a warning (bling) and a redlight icon on the dashboard


(If you are near Hasselt feel free to PM me if you want to do a test drive).

[ikke123]

Originally Posted by X5 45e

Did you never have steering wheel vibration when someone is in your blind spot or when you cross a line? It should vibrate if you activated it.

Options set are for early warning and steer wheel vibration.

Steering wheel only vibrates when crossing lanes (lane assist) but has never vibrated when a danger is detected (like the red car on dashboard)

Dealer says: that’s normal. Steering wheel does NOT vibrate when danger is detected.

To myself I am thinking: WTF? This would be exactly when I’d expect it to vibrate.

So is the dealer right and is this a poor implementation by BMW? Or should it work like I think and is the car defective?

[ikke123]

Originally Posted by W0ut

I never experienced losing settings, home address etc. But I did read quite some post about other people complaining about it.

Keep in mind that all these systems are driving 'aids'. Depending on the road and weather conditions certain systems might fail or be less accurate. BMW (nor Audi, Mercedes, VW, ...) claim their driving aids are flawless. You are still the driver and the responsible

I can 100% confirm that my 45e does all the items mentioned below.

* Always automatically breaks in case of danger. (hard breaking from car in front, a stopped vehicle in traffic jam). Even at highway speeds!

* When looking at my phone I get blings.
Once in a traffic jam I got a bunch of warnings about paying attention. Never was able to replicate this.

* with ACC on. Automatically adjusts speed to flow of traffic.

* with ACC on. Breaks (and warns) for cyclist, pedestrians

* with ACC on. Avoids (parked) obstacles on road. It actively steers away from them. Caught me by surprise several times. (very annoying on roads where cars are partly parked on shoulder and partly on road. *every street n Antwerp and Brussels*)

* when reversing from my driveway onto the street, I get warnings when a car is approaching.


Maybe also relevant:

* always (ACC must not be enabled). Steering wheel is pushing back and vibrates when changing lanes without using indicators (disabled it, very annoying)

* when approaching stop or yield signs. I get a bling to warn me to stop.

* when approaching red light I get a warning (bling) and a redlight icon on the dashboard


(If you are near Hasselt feel free to PM me if you want to do a test drive).

Wout, appreciate the feedback. I’m in Leuven but guess we have the same dealer network.

Your descriptions are very precise and with that I can confirm that my car does NOT do what you describe:

- when in adaptive cruise control it slows down but I never had it to apply automatically hard / emergency brakes. Dealer says that braking is assist only.
- car never detected a pedestrian / cyclists yes as motorbikes
- it never avoided obstacles (active steering by itself)
- I can turn my head around and talk to the people in the back and the car wouldn’t do anything

From reading this I can only conclude that my car’s safety systems are not working. I appreciate that I am still responsible as a driver but having had 2 severe car accidents (never in fault) and seen as a kid another kid from my school killed by a car while cycling, I chose this car because of those features. I might be overdramatizing but for me those security features are the most important features.

[ikke123]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

No, it is correct. It is just the way all of these systems work since they use radar they are unlikely to stop for stopped vehicles at highway speed. BMW only states that the X5 has automatic braking at city speeds not highway speeds. ACC does not come into the picture since we are talking about emergency braking or lack thereof. As an aside, ACC will not brake in that situation either from all reports.

Here are a couple of articles that give some detail:

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-au...y-crash-radar/

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06...lane-dividers/

Active protection is a standard feature in the US, not sure about elsewhere.

Edit: I need to correct the statements above. The user manual does say there could be braking intervention up to 130mph with the radar sensor. That could mean the ACC that you were referring to.

Attachment 2347219

Here is the section on limitations and one of them is approaching a slow moving vehicle at a high rate of speed. I think that is the one that pertains to what we have been talking about in regards to coming up on stopped vehicles.

Attachment 2347221

Very clear - thanks Turtleboy.

Semantics is what the discussion will be about: They claim that it is braking assistance; not self braking. It intervenes by helping you to brake.

My understanding always was that the car could do this WITHOUT intervention; so self brake in order to avoid a crash / accident.

So my question is: who is right?
- dealer: car intervenes by helping in the braking but does not self brake.
- me: owner manual and BMW videos illustrate self braking; car is supposed to self brake.

This is a saga that has been going on for half a year now. I cut BMW some slack because of the pandemic. I feel like I have a (great) car but one that is not working as it should.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by ikke123

Very clear - thanks Turtleboy.

Semantics is what the discussion will be about: They claim that it is braking assistance; not self braking. It intervenes by helping you to brake.

My understanding always was that the car could do this WITHOUT intervention; so self brake in order to avoid a crash / accident.

So my question is: who is right?
- dealer: car intervenes by helping in the braking but does not self brake.
- me: owner manual and BMW videos illustrate self braking; car is supposed to self brake.

This is a saga that has been going on for half a year now. I cut BMW some slack because of the pandemic. I feel like I have a (great) car but one that is not working as it should.

In general, you are correct. There are definitely instances where the G05 will brake by itself. It is hard to tell though if the automatic braking is working because the driver could be reacting before the system starts braking. Short of putting a soft obstacle in front of you and driving into it, you just sort of have assume it is working.

As far as it not detecting things, it could be that the circumstances weren't correct but then again maybe it is not working.

Either way, your dealer is wrong but what can be done. From all accounts there are no field tests that can be done to determine if the safety systems are working correctly. The only thing a dealer can do is look for any fault codes but if none exist, all systems are working as far as they are concerned.

Here is a link to the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) testing of the G05. You can show your dealer that it does indeed have automatic braking and either stopped or significantly reduced the speed in their testing which was done at 12 and 25 mph.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle...cle-to-vehicle

Good luck with your situation.

[X5 45e]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

No, it is correct. It is just the way all of these systems work since they use radar they are unlikely to stop for stopped vehicles at highway speed. BMW only states that the X5 has automatic braking at city speeds not highway speeds. ACC does not come into the picture since we are talking about emergency braking or lack thereof. As an aside, ACC will not brake in that situation either from all reports.

Here are a couple of articles that give some detail:

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-au...y-crash-radar/

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06...lane-dividers/

Active protection is a standard feature in the US, not sure about elsewhere.

Edit: I need to correct the statements above. The user manual does say there could be braking intervention up to 130mph with the radar sensor. That could mean the ACC that you were referring to.

Attachment 2347219

Here is the section on limitations and one of them is approaching a slow moving vehicle at a high rate of speed. I think that is the one that pertains to what we have been talking about in regards to coming up on stopped vehicles.

Attachment 2347221

The article you posted is clarifying. Thanks.

Primum non nocere is also important in my work. So the system is programmed in a way that it is less likely to create a dangerous situation that shouldn't have been one if it didn't intervene. Like slamming the brakes at highway speeds for a car that is parked on the emergency lane and causing an accident.

How I see the system is as a back up. I wouldn't trust autopilot. The driver is responsible and in controle. In a situation were I was disturbed and didn't see a danger and I would have had an accident the system could try to correct it. But if it didn't or if I was driving a car without the system I would have had an accident anyway. This of course is a different point of view than relying on automatic driving and reading a newspaper behind the wheel.

[X5 45e]

Originally Posted by ikke123

Options set are for early warning and steer wheel vibration.

Steering wheel only vibrates when crossing lanes (lane assist) but has never vibrated when a danger is detected (like the red car on dashboard)

Dealer says: that’s normal. Steering wheel does NOT vibrate when danger is detected.

To myself I am thinking: WTF? This would be exactly when I’d expect it to vibrate.

So is the dealer right and is this a poor implementation by BMW? Or should it work like I think and is the car defective?

One thing that could be wrong like mentioned by TurtleBoy is that you are a careful driver and didn't encounter a situation yet that needed an intervention. You would essentially have to start creating dangerous situations to test if it works.