[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by speedyman

Glad you clarified that for me. I've been confused and mislead for 40 years.

That's exactly how people playing the victim on those entertainment shows sound! You've got it down!

[speedyman]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

That's exactly how people playing the victim on those entertainment shows sound! You've got it down!

It was a f'n joke Dude. Jeeeeeezus Man, lighten up.

[jad03060]

$3-5K to install an EVSE seems an outside cost, at least in most places in the USA...mine was about $1k, and, since the wiring is pretty simple, if the condo where I live didn't require it be done by a licensed electrician, it would have been about $500 installed for a Clipper Creek unit, hardwired in place. Now, if you needed to trench to some outside area, and had to make a long run to get a new circuit installed inside walls/ceilings or repair them after cutting holes to run the wires, maybe. Heavy gauge wire is expensive, but adding a new circuit is pretty simple stuff, so the bigger variable is the amount of labor involved. At maybe in the order of $120/hour, it would take a really unusual situation to rack up that much cost - like three days of labor!?

I'm on my second electric vehicle, but the first one, I got hit up with the minimum alternate tax issues, and did not get the full amount. I did get it for the X45e, though. Most people thinking of buying the X5 45e will likely qualify for the full amount of the credit.

[-Vanguard-]

Originally Posted by biterror

Every ICE vehicle already releases water vapor, among other things :-) Producing hydrogen requires lots of energy and the fuel cells have low efficiency (40-60%), so it's not a perfect solution. Not to mention that hydrogen can cause huge explosions.. EV's are the way to go, IMO.

EV batteries are disgustingly dirty to produce too and guess where the majority of the electricity to charge EV comes from? Dirty, dirty coal.

The honest solution to cars contributing to global warming is to put restrictions on how many refreshed and new models car manufacturers comes out with as to not promote people into buying unnecessary upgrades for looks.

Also, the cleanest thing anyone can do for the environment is buy a used car. Much cleaner than producing a new EV made to order.

[jad03060]

It depends on where you live whether coal is used as a source of electrical power...more and more coal-fired plants are closing or being converted just because NG is more economical, and renewables are working to replace them, too.

Unfortunately, too much of the hydrogen is blue rather than being green, but as more renewables come on line, that may change.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by -Vanguard-

EV batteries are disgustingly dirty to produce too and guess where the majority of the electricity to charge EV comes from? Dirty, dirty coal.

This misses the entire point of EVs:

(1.) Prove battery tech for passenger cars in real-world settings - oil production in the 1930s wasn't exactly clean, and it's not clean today.

(2.) The petroleum supply chain is global, fragile, and massively vulnerable with no consumer optionality. E.g., East Coast gas shortages for no reason whatsoever (you're screwed); you can't buy a home drilling & refining kit to make your own fuel during storms or to be self-sufficient. With batteries & solar one can be energy independent (make your own fuel) whether you live in a city community or a rural farm.

(3.) If the majority of cars are EVs, one change at the power plant and all EVs are suddenly & immediately green That change could be coal stack scrubbers to recapture the CO2 (which are in use today) or building another producer altogether like wind, solar, or nuclear (ideally a Thorium MSR).

This is why Warren Buffett is betting big on solar w/ Berkshire Hathaway Energy.


Improving battery tech & production is relatively easy and there's $1T of investment there with everyone from BMW to startups researching the battery holy grail.

Originally Posted by jad03060

It depends on where you live whether coal is used as a source of electrical power...more and more coal-fired plants are closing

Yup, as I've said, hydrogen is great way to take a perfectly good EV and hobble it with fragile & expensive fuel supply chain that's dirtier than oil.

China is going EVs + safe nuclear with thorium salt reactors - a technology the USA invented in the 50s & even used to power aircraft! The reason the US stopped was because the plants didn't turn uranium into plutonium that could be used for nuclear bombs.

It's time for the US to dust off its safe-nuclear tech - the same that it used to power this:

[biterror]

Originally Posted by -Vanguard-

EV batteries are disgustingly dirty to produce too and guess where the majority of the electricity to charge EV comes from? Dirty, dirty coal.

It depends. All the electricity I use comes from renewable sources (solar, hydro, wind). I guess it's different in the US, but it isn't EV's fault.

[jad03060]

When BMW setup the i3 and i8 production supply stream, they spent a lot of time working with suppliers to be as green as possible...a big energy use is producing the CFRP, and they purposely sourced suppliers near big hydro electrical plants, they actually use the cutoffs and remnants from the body to make the roof panel, and similar things...I don't remember what they did with their battery supplier, but they probably did similar things. SOme of the environmental costs are supply chain, but being wise in your sources can minimize that.

The same thing is possible with hydrogen production. Europe is further ahead in planning for, and actually producing green hydrogen than the USA. That MIGHT change over the next few years with some things in the infrastructure bill once it starts to be implemented. The existing NG pipelines can move hydrogen, too, and many combustion devices can be fairly easily converted to use that fuel, so we don't need a totally new infrastructure to move it around.

H2 may end up making more sense for long range trucking than passenger vehicles, but it all depends on how things go in the next 5-10 years...doesn't hurt to test the waters and refine the technique required.

[jad03060]

Recently, the Toyota FCEV, using hypermiling techniques in California, but otherwise unmodified, achieved 845-miles on a single fill-up...refill in probably about 5-minutes.

Some solid state batteries imply some absurdly high charging currents, but where are you going to find the infrastructure to support those? Not that finding hydrogen is easy. Nor, are any of these solid state batteries generally available.

Don't discount this tech, and economy of scale can help, but that takes some

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by jad03060

unmodified, achieved 845-miles on a single fill-up...refill in probably about 5-minutes.

Don't discount this tech, and economy of scale can help, but that takes some

Who cares? serious question. really.

Like why the fascination of taking great technology (hydrogen fuel cells) and putting it to its worst use (consumer vehicles)? BMW is doing great things with hydrogen - in its factories! Trucking, shipping, rail, even airlines could put hydrogen to fantastic use ... but not consumer vehicles.

Nobody needs (or wants) 845 miles of range. People like filling up in their garage. Inconvenience has already killed consumer hydrogen cars:

It was a good idea 10 years when lithium ion batteries were heavy, expensive, and had low energy density ... but now there's a Tesla Model 3. An ID.4. A Mach-E ... and that's just the tip of the e-ice-berg ...

No worries about solid state lithium because it's going to be much more mundane things like systems engineering, pack design, and iron-phosphate that'll kill today's lithium ion batteries - there are companies like ONE working on 70+% cell battery packs (today's are 30-40%) going into production in 2022.

Electric cars are about to get 2x cheaper, 2x more range, 2x more power ... with 90% of the car being recyclable. There are companies working on "mining" electric cars!

2015, maybe it coulda still happened ...

But 2022? Fetch just ain't gonna happen.

[MadBimmeRad]

I strongly recommend anyone who thinks EVs are going to save the planet to look up "The Dark Side of Green Energy" by Al-Jazeera

It used to be said, "To boldly go where no man has gone before" .... Now, it should read "To blindly go where no man should ever go again"

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I strongly recommend anyone who thinks EVs are going to save the planet to look up "The Dark Side of Green Energy" by Al-Jazeera

It used to be said, "To boldly go where no man has gone before" .... Now, it should read "To blindly go where no man should ever go again"

I don't expect EVs will save the planet. But they will allow for a greater variety of energy sources to be used. Which is a good thing.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by FCX5

I don't EVs will save the planet. But they will allow for a greater variety of energy sources to be used. Which is a good thing.

The biggest problem with humanity is going in head first, much like this Far Side depiction of a royal cluster f#@k

Often enough, we don't think about the consequences of our collective actions before committing to them

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I strongly recommend anyone who thinks EVs are going to save the planet

So what will save the planet, then?

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

So what will save the planet, then?

For one thing, were need to adapt a cooperative attitude to life rather than a purely competitive one. This must extend from individual to individual, community to community, nation to nation.

When more funds are dedicated to creating a solution, than there is to fund problems (eg perpetual state of war), then maybe, only maybe may we hope to save the planet.

Having said that, the planet isn't the one in need of saving, humanity is the one. Earth will still be here long after humanity has vanished.

[jad03060]

The way I look at it, H2O-H2-H2O is just moving energy, but the direct byproducts are not corrosive, or detrimental to the atmosphere or environment. Yes, how hydrogen is primarily produced today, it's often not very green. That could change as our energy mix evolves. There's no mining, refining, manufacturing required to produce hydrogen like there is with producing a battery (other than the infrastructure). Having more evolved choices under our belts can be advantageous...I for one, if the infrastructure was there, would take a five-minute fillup of hydrogen versus waiting for batteries to be recharged. The life-cycle of a FC is likely greater than that of any battery tech we'll see for a long time.

Take a recent announcement that 1000Kw charging was demonstrated...think of the network load, or more probably, how much local storage you'd need...then think about having a line of people waiting to charge...how much storage are you going to have to the point where maybe the 2-3 or fifth guy may only see 1/10th of that, because the local storage was exhausted. The local power to refuel a hydrogen vehicle is the same until the tank is exhausted, and that is more likely to be sized for the use, whether that's intermittent, or in drastic rushes...everyone would get the same until or if the tank runs dry.

You can make H2 anywhere you've got power and water, which, is most anyplace. It can be shipped in existing NG pipelines, or via tankers, or made onsite. Not something that can be said about battery packs!

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Earth will still be here long after humanity has vanished.

The rock will be here ... just like Venus & Mars ...

Whether the oxygen, liquid water, atmosphere, radiation protection, and other biosphere requirements to support life will be surrounding that rock is another thing entirely.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by jad03060

... There's no mining, refining, manufacturing required to produce hydrogen like there is with producing a battery (other than the infrastructure). Having more evolved choices under our belts can be advantageous....

You can make H2 anywhere you've got power and water, which, is most anyplace. It can be shipped in existing NG pipelines, or via tankers, or made onsite. Not something that can be said about battery packs!

Originally Posted by GrussGott

The rock will be here ... just like Venus & Mars ...

Whether the oxygen, liquid water, atmosphere, radiation protection, and other biosphere requirements to support life will be surrounding that rock is another thing entirely.

Hear hear