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      06-17-2021, 11:10 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by biterror View Post
Every ICE vehicle already releases water vapor, among other things :-) Producing hydrogen requires lots of energy and the fuel cells have low efficiency (40-60%), so it's not a perfect solution. Not to mention that hydrogen can cause huge explosions.. EV's are the way to go, IMO.
except that whole lithium mining thing everyone like to ignore.
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      06-17-2021, 11:10 AM   #68
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Hydrogen Fuel technology has some very promising advantages over oil and electric. It also has some distinct disadvantages, lack of infrastructure, difuculty to produce including the energy needed to produce it, storage and transportation just to name a few.

Hydrogen fuel cells may be a wonderfully environmental solution but currently the vast majority of hydrogen production is far from being carbon neutral. Hydrogen can be produced using diverse, domestic resources—including fossil fuels, such as natural gas and coal (with carbon sequestration-current main source); nuclear energy; and other renewable energy sources, such as biomass, wind, solar, geothermal, and hydro-electric power—using a wide range of processes.

The overall challenge to hydrogen production is cost. For cost-competitive transportation, a key driver for energy independence, hydrogen must be comparable to conventional fuels and technologies on a per-mile basis. In order for fuel cell electric vehicles to be competitive, the total untaxed, delivered and dispensed, cost of hydrogen needs to be less than $4/gge. A gge, or gasoline gallon equivalent, is the amount of fuel that has the same amount of energy as a gallon of gasoline. One kilogram of hydrogen is equivalent to one gallon of gasoline. This goal is based on thorough research with stakeholders, academia, and national labs.
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      06-17-2021, 11:17 AM   #69
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Burning fuel is so last season. Also, there is no gas distribution network in many places (like my country) while you can get electricity pretty much everywhere. Electric vehicles are simpler and faster and when their range goes up a bit, I can't see any reason for using other techniques.
what about when we start running low on lithium? or what if it is found out the mining process does more harm than good. there has been no research on the effects of lithium mining so far.
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      06-17-2021, 01:27 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by lonestar22 View Post
what about when we start running low on lithium? or what if it is found out the mining process does more harm than good. there has been no research on the effects of lithium mining so far.
If this works, lithium won't be a problem. Besides, they are developing other battery chemistries.
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      06-17-2021, 02:27 PM   #71
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If this works, lithium won't be a problem. Besides, they are developing other battery chemistries.
They better cook up some ass kickin batteries for those 14 hour non stop NY to Tokyo flights. I'm sure the Green New Deal has this trivial stuff all worked out for us. No more need for the terrible, planet destroying fossil fuels. What a wonderful world it will be. Who needs any of the tens of thousands of products we currently depend on and enjoy that are derived from coal, gas, and oil.
I can't wait!
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      06-17-2021, 02:51 PM   #72
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My hope is that they release this as a plug-in hydrogen hybrid EV with 50+ miles range a full battery charge. The capacity of the 45e is pretty much right for me.

Daily driving based on overnight charging at home. Only on long journeys would the fuel cell kick in. Less hydrogen usage, less pressure on an immature distribution infrastructure and probably cheaper running costs. Less lithium required in the vehicle so it's lighter and perhaps cheaper too.
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      06-17-2021, 03:14 PM   #73
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The way we make hydrogen currently is mostly not particularly green. There have been some incremental improvements in the production process using electrolysis by use of different electrodes where the source water doesn't have to be as pure and allows them to last longer, but yes, breaking hydrogen out of water takes a fair amount of energy.

Many of the green sources of energy are cyclical...like solar only working during the daytime, and wind, generally stronger during the day as well caused by the sun's differential heating. Tides OTOH are cyclical, but very reliable and predictable. In the last 5-years or so, there's been a lot of research on how to convert that to electricity whereby there are now some test tidal and wave generators making actual electrical power and based on those results, the probability of significantly more in the future.

The power industry does have times when there is a significant overcapacity but generally, there's not an easy, economical way to store that energy for later use to balance the load out. Some places are moving towards huge battery storage. The hydro system at Niagara Falls uses excess energy to pump water to a reservoir to augment power during the day...hydrogen production has the potential to store energy when we have excess capacity when that capacity is green...it wouldn't make much sense to do it with fossil fuels.

So, when hydrogen can be made from green sources, it's a good way to store energy that when converted back is also green.

Water, if you include the oceans, is either a big problem with supply, like in desert areas, or a big problem near the oceans where storms or along rivers that flood. But, if you look at it like we don't actually MAKE any hydrogen, we're just converting it from one form to another (like water to hydrogen and oxygen and back again, or when burning a fossil fuel from carbohydrates to carbon dioxide, water, and nitrogen compounds), converting between hydrogen+oxygen and water and back is MUCH cleaner, if we can do it with green energy.

Making a fuel cell more efficient and 'making' hydrogen efficiently and cleanly will all take further research to get where we want to go. Hydrogen can be burned, as well as used in a fuel cell, so if we had a method to produce it that was green, and economical, that would be quite useful.

As to climate change, we may already have passed a tipping point. While humans don't have weather history for more than a blink in geologic time scales, we can infer the atmospheric concentrations of gasses fairly well for more than 600K years in ice cores, and longer than that in sedimentary rock.

While there have been times in geological history where the CO2 levels were higher than they are now, primarily when volcanic activity was MUCH higher, the RATE of change in those levels has NEVER been anywhere near as steep which is what it putting so much stress on the environment and the species that are not getting enough time to adapt. The amount of open water in the Arctic, and the breakup of the ice sheets exposes the Arctic to become much more efficient at absorbing solar energy. Keep in mind that the Gulf stream is powered by the hot water near the equator and the cold water from the Arctic. We're heating up the equatorial waters more, and the Arctic, meaning there's a change in the differential...this has resulted in a measurable change in the current that makes the eastern US more temperate as well as much of Europe. These changes affect the polar winds as well. The loss of ice in the Arctic is causing the permafrost to melt, and that's releasing huge amounts of CO2 that were not in the models, so it's likely the predictions are under estimating the impacts.

Keep in mind that heating water also expands it, and that is also creating a measurable ocean level rise. The glaciers in Antarctica are losing their logjams as the warmer ocean water is eroding them from below, meaning that they are not held back by the friction caused when they're butting up against islands, or seamounts. Some of them have increased their slide towards the ocean by a factor of over 100. If we melted all of the glaciers, the ocean levels would be nearly 100M higher...say goodbye to all of our big coastal cities. Venice, Italy spent billions on some moveable tidal gates to protect the city that were projected to be sufficient for many years...in the time it took to build them, they're already too low to protect the city from leap tides.

Mankind doesn't seem to like change, and sort of like the ostrich, sometimes puts their head in the sand. We do not know the future for certain, but not having an open mind to see what is happening is dangerous...we need to consider the possibilities and mitigate their effects in an intelligent manner.
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      06-17-2021, 04:50 PM   #74
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I'm not going to write an essay debating the merits of the Climate change debate, impact to the environment or whether its man made.

The fact is EV cars are here, and they are only going to get more popular - so I just accept it and move on. The one constant in life is change, so the momentum towards EVs is here to stay. The question is what will drive these EVs in the long term, pure batteries? ..or batteries with Fuel Cells?

I think Hydrogen Fuel Cell (HFC) offers a lot of promise; especially around range, and will give pure battery (storage) powered EVs a good run for their money. I'm really excited that BMW have put Hydrogen Fuel cell power in an X5 EV, and I'll be watching the progress of the "real-life" testing with much interest.

Its great that manufacturers are exploring different approaches to powering EVs, it will encourage innovation across both camps.

I think a winner will emerge in the next 5-10 years; economics, innovation and Governments encouraging the associated infrastructure will dictate the result, maybe there's even room for both??? (eg. there's been gas/petrol, Diesel and LPG cars around for many years). Until then my trusty and proven 30d/Diesel will serve me well.

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      06-17-2021, 07:02 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James_G0530d View Post
I think Hydrogen Fuel Cell (HFC) offers a lot of promise;
In general, for passenger car fuel, hydrogen has a lot of trade-offs for not much benefit, and is mostly pushed by Big Oil:

(1.) Said simply, electric cars have fewer steps from renewable power source to car engine - hydrogen fuel cells have more steps, thus less efficient (BEVs = 40%-70%, FCV = 23% - 33%) so there's no real reason for it*

(2.) Hydrogen makes a GREAT long-term energy storage source, due to lots of energy BY WEIGHT, but VERY LITTLE BY VOLUME! That means where big tanks aren't a problem H2 is ideal (maybe a H2 tanker that brings H2 to rural areas to power electric stuff, like cars!)

Start at 5:25 for an Engineering Explained comparison of the various auto fuels:



*So, due to efficiency and given there are already EVs, there's no real reason for hydrogen passenger cars so why do we hear about it?

Because much of the hydrogen industry are Big Oil looking to get the hydrogen from ... hydrocarbons, i.e., OIL! aka "grey hydrogen"



And, duh, renewable hydrogen is WAY more expensive:



And, duh, grey hydrogen is basically not different from burning gasoline (far worse in terms of CO2) - but it just might fool people into THINKING it's different:



Net-net, sure hydrogen can work for passenger cars, but green hydrogen is pretty expensive, so the only reason it's being researched is because it's a way to keep mining and burning oil ... in which case it's just a more inefficient version of oil.

If H2 is from green sources, then it probably makes the most sense for long-haul transportation to places that can't easily produce & transport electricity or need a sudden burst of energy.

Otherwise it's just a more expensive & CO2-emitting version of oil.
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      06-17-2021, 07:14 PM   #76
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Hydrogen doesn't make a lot of sense unless you have a readily available supply of green hydrogen. We may get there, but it will take an excess capacity of green electricity to do it. Fuel cell efficiency will improve with time, too. To be viable, a FC vehicle will still need a battery in the interim to provide peak, instantaneous power, you don't want to pay for in today's FC stack.
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      06-17-2021, 07:32 PM   #77
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Thanks GrussGott that was a very informative post 👍
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      06-17-2021, 09:23 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
In general, for passenger car fuel, hydrogen has a lot of trade-offs for not much benefit, and is mostly pushed by Big Oil]
That's a great "current state" view with the current technologies available now, but I guess where I was going is I hope we see a whole lot of NEW Innovations that close the gap on efficiency, hopefully for both Batteries and Fuel Cell technology.

Example, look at where motors & engines have come from the 1970s-80 gas guzzlers to where they are today. That was driven by the fear of running out of oil & general air-quality/pollution.
Today we have the "climate change" fear (myth or not....) and that fear is going to drive some interesting developments over the next 10 years. So watch this space...


I just want a car that does 800km on "one charge" or fill-up, and has a reliable option to "Re-charge" or refill at the other end, and I think that's what most people out there want too.
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      06-17-2021, 10:02 PM   #79
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Someone kill this thread. The political name calling from the peanut gallery is more embarrassingly childish than the G8x grill debate*



* I hate those fucking grills.
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      06-18-2021, 12:20 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James_G0530d View Post

I hope we see a whole lot of NEW Innovations that close the gap on efficiency

the "climate change" fear... is going to drive some interesting developments over the next 10 years.
Agreed - let's see some great innovations!

That said, climate change not the primary fear driving EVs, at least not the Western (or Eastern) governments ...

The primary fear is National Security from China & Russia - and this fear will be driving innovation in all of the places China is actively seeking dominance:

(1.) AI
(2.) Communications (5G)
(3.) Robotics
(4.) Energy & Transportation (Li-ion & EVs)
(5.) Space dominance

So with Space, most people agree we can't have communists & authoritarians dominating orbital territory ... and most people agree, like our military, the government needs to fund & manage it ... and to do that most people favor government contracts for milestone based products like reusable rockets...

However, the US & Euro governments aren't going to publicly say:
"Hey citizens, China invented the EV industry out of whole cloth in order to flank our energy industry and dominate transportation so we've got to dominate first"

In the case of EVs, we didn't even need product-milestone government contracts - just a few loans and some tax relief (which have cost WAY less than the $10B to bailout the US auto industry) - and we let US entrepreneurs do the rest.


Net-net: Western EV development is about not losing strategic advantage in energy & transportation first ... and the rest of the stuff second.
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      06-18-2021, 04:01 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad View Post
"More than 99 percent of all organisms that have ever lived on Earth are extinct. As new species evolve to fit ever changing ecological niches, older species fade away. But the rate of extinction is far from constant. At least a handful of times in the last 500 million years, 75 to more than 90 percent of all species on Earth have disappeared in a geological blink of an eye in catastrophes we call mass extinctions.

Though mass extinctions are deadly events, they open up the planet for new forms of life to emerge."

National Geographic

Extinction is an inevitable consequence of dominance of a singular species over all others.

Life on Earth is like a peloton crash in cycling. While everything is going smoothly, everyone in the peloton powers on happily and in harmony with the rest of the peloton. One cyclist crashes and the whole peloton falls apart. But often a few cyclists survive the crash and go on to the end.

Humanity is the cyclist that crashed; Earth the cycling race.

Earth has survived many catastrophes prior to humans and shall do so many more. Humanity on the other hand; I'm not so sure about.


Yep, planet earth has been around billions of year before humanity and will be around billions of years after. Ideally our short existence on the planet should be healthy and enjoyable.

Another problem is overconsumption by humans. That's a tricky one to solve as more and more humans inhabit the planet. However, people are at least being made aware of it.
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      06-18-2021, 06:15 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by James_G0530d View Post

I hope we see a whole lot of NEW Innovations that close the gap on efficiency

the "climate change" fear... is going to drive some interesting developments over the next 10 years.
Agreed - let's see some great innovations!

That said, climate change not the primary fear driving EVs, at least not the Western (or Eastern) governments ...

The primary fear is National Security from China & Russia - and this fear will be driving innovation in all of the places China is actively seeking dominance:

(1.) AI
(2.) Communications (5G)
(3.) Robotics
(4.) Energy & Transportation (Li-ion & EVs)
(5.) Space dominance

So with Space, most people agree we can't have communists & authoritarians dominating orbital territory ... and most people agree, like our military, the government needs to fund & manage it ... and to do that most people favor government contracts for milestone based products like reusable rockets...

However, the US & Euro governments aren't going to publicly say:
"Hey citizens, China invented the EV industry out of whole cloth in order to flank our energy industry and dominate transportation so we've got to dominate first"

In the case of EVs, we didn't even need product-milestone government contracts - just a few loans and some tax relief (which have cost WAY less than the $10B to bailout the US auto industry) - and we let US entrepreneurs do the rest.


Net-net: Western EV development is about not losing strategic advantage in energy & transportation first ... and the rest of the stuff second.
Interesting. The CEO of my previous company (also a friend and fairly well known) started a new company that advices several US companies on exactly those 5 technology areas. Won't mention the company since it would give too much info.

By the way, technology is progressing and here is the head of BMW engineering..:they are doing stuff like EV because they think it'll lead to better cars vs political reasons.

https://apple.news/AeeOXzxdtTYqvaanwR7NLmQ
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      06-18-2021, 08:38 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
I think we're at a point where EVs are so good that you can not give a rats ass about the environment and still love them. I understand very well the emotion and experience that comes with a gas engine and 6MT. I also understand very well how nice it is to have a smooth drivetrain, no maintenance, and never having to get gas. I am admittedly a BMW fanboy but I also love cars in general, and it is hard to not be impressed by that new Model S Plaid that came out last week. Over 1000hp and 9.2 in the qtr for $130k, panel gaps be damned. Who knows what the future holds for ICE engines, but this kind of performance/dollar is available today from EVs -- and you can still own your gas powered toys too. What a time to be alive.
+1, yes!
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      06-18-2021, 08:39 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbertels View Post
Someone kill this thread. The political name calling from the peanut gallery is more embarrassingly childish than the G8x grill debate
lol ... I have to admit it was difficult to get through to the 4th page!
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      06-18-2021, 08:27 PM   #85
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You get into the classic chicken or egg problem...people won't buy FCV in any numbers until there are ways to refuel them, and the infrastructure doesn't evolve until there's a demand unless someone intervenes to help out. That's where government can help fund some research and development.

BMW, Toyota, Hyundai, Mercedes and maybe some others are pushing things by testing various FCV, hoping to prove that they can actually work.

Same thing with some green energy sources. The costs of things like solar cells and windmills have come down quite a bit, and compact nuclear power plants are ready to start up except for the bad perceptions they have with the public.
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      06-19-2021, 12:21 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jad03060 View Post

Same thing with some green energy sources. The costs of things like solar cells and windmills have come down quite a bit, and compact nuclear power plants are ready to start up except for the bad perceptions they have with the public.
Solar and Wind are wonderful and clean source of energy but I read an article a couple of months ago that currently, even with a massive effort, solar and wind could only cover 20% of the current need for power in the US and that’s without the increased demand of even a 50% EV population or the need for clean power to make Hydrogen.

Currently nuclear would provide enough clean power but its stigma and waste disposal issues are large hurdles to leap in the United States.
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      06-19-2021, 12:51 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Stoshu View Post
Solar and Wind are wonderful and clean source of energy but I read an article a couple of months ago that currently, even with a massive effort, solar and wind could only cover 20% of the current need for power in the US and that’s without the increased demand of even a 50% EV population or the need for clean power to make Hydrogen.

Currently nuclear would provide enough clean power but its stigma and waste disposal issues are large hurdles to leap in the United States.
Nuclear is really the only clean option if the government is going force the EV change over in the near term as I have been told by several electrical engineers working in the electrical power generation/distribution industry. There is not enough power in places like CA now, citizens in that state have to endure rolling blackouts as they do in third world countries. Simply amazing and totally unacceptable, environmentalism gone berserk.
Lets force people to buy EVs that they can't always recharge, makes all the sense in the world out there in CA.
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      06-19-2021, 03:04 PM   #88
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The CHADEMO system was designed to enable bi-directional power flow. CCS was not, but it could be added. A big fleet of EVs with bi-directional power flow could provide a HUGE buffer for exceptional situations.

Where there is reliable solar (i.e., few cloudy days), there aren't all that many people NOR is there the power distribution system to carry it where it would need to go. Those areas also tend to be sparse on water, so using that space to produce hydrogen isn't viable, either. Places where there's lots of water tend to also have more cloudy days. Solar still works there, but it's not as efficient.

There's more than enough wind, solar, and tidal energy to power the world, but moving it where it needs to go requires big improvements in infrastructure. Building test fleet of FCV is still a good idea to get the kinks out.

We'll probably get to the point on battery tech where they can be recharged quite quickly, there are prototypes out there now, but that huge spike on the power grid will need some significant engineering. Using hydrogen, generated when the grid load is down, storing it, and being able to refill the vehicle in minutes has a huge appeal, and none of the peak power demands batteries have when recharging.

Time will tell how this all works out in the end. I like the idea of FCV, but even with EVs...we're not ready for prime time yet which is why I got a PHEV...EV for me most of the time, rapid refill when needed, and just keep going. This comes at a cost...two drivetrains, extra weight, and maintenance on two systems.

Throw in the NIMBY effects, and making the required changes get tougher.
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