[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by bobbis1

Yes in the same way a b58 and s58 only difference is tuning

Yeah so I keep reading "ZOMG X5M is so much better bro!" posts, but yet nobody can detail why.

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EDIT: SUMMARY OF DIFFERENCES HERE
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"different parts" - really? Where is that documented? Not saying it's not true, just that nobody seems to have any tech details on this stuff which is odd for any M forum ...

I've been driving an M3/4 for 15 years and there's always TONS of technical info on why the M3 engine is "bespoke" but with the F95/6 seems like a lot of vague references to totally-better-bro but no details.

The M site, for example, lists 6 things, so let's get into it and then you expert owners can add to it:

• "M TwinPower Turbo V-8 engine"
Includes four water pumps, six radiators, and a dedicated transmission cooler.
How is that different than the M50i's "M TwinPower Turbo V-8 engine" & cooling?
Any tech docs, links?

• 8-speed M STEPTRONIC automatic transmission
How is that different than the M50i's "8-speed Sport Automatic transmission"?
Any tech docs, links?

• M xDrive
M xDrive ... Adjust between 4WD and 4WD Sport for a rear-biased, sportier drive.
How is that different than the M50i's "xDrive all-wheel-drive system"
Any tech docs, links?

• M Sport Differential
...transmits torque and continuously sets an optimal degree of lock between the rear wheels
How is that different than the M50i's "M Sport Differential"
Any tech docs, links?

• Adaptive M Suspension Professional
precise steering response and high body rigidity with adjustable drive modes
How is that different than the M50i's "Adaptive M Suspension Professional" offered in the DHP?
Any tech docs, links?

• 6-piston front M compound brakes
ventilated, drilled brake discs provide maximum cooling and endurance.
This one I may know! The M50i's "M Sport Brakes" are, I think, 4-piston fronts and rotors are smaller but finding confirmation is hard


Net-net:
These vehicles seem to differ technically with the X5M having:

(1.) More bracing
Per Savage Geese but no details on what "more" is - docs?

(2.) Slightly more horsepower from the same engine
If you say "bespoke bro" then please point me to the docs

(3.) Possible more cooling?
Unconfirmed the cooling differs from M50i

(4.) Larger brakes and rotors
While kinda unconfirmed in that no docs, various descriptions of "m sport" vs "M compound" seem to indicate this.

(5.) Possibly tunes of suspension, steering
Both have "Adaptive M Suspension Professional" suspension, X5M lists "M-tuned electric power steering with M Servotronic" but no details if that's tuning, components, both, or none.

The M50i also has IAS, i.e., rear wheel steering, whereas the X5M does not.

School me up!

[hdahman]

Different or not! I don't care , BMW made M cars better

[Ilyam5]

if you look at M5 docs, you will see the difference in engine

[hksr]

Does it really matter? Drive both, see which you like more.

Personally, I'd probably get an M50i because of the air suspension and more comfortable ride for my growing family. If my kids were older, I'd probably go full X5M.

For my reasons, I wouldn't care about difference in parts. Just the difference in drive experience.

[Tenac]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Yeah so I keep reading "ZOMG X5M is so much better bro!" posts, but yet nobody can detail why.

"different parts" - really? Where is that documented? Not saying it's not true, just that nobody seems to have any tech details on this stuff which is odd for any M forum ...

I've been driving an M3/4 for 15 years and there's always TONS of technical info on why the M3 engine is "bespoke" but with the F95/6 seems like a lot of vague references to totally-better-bro but no details.

The M site, for example, lists 6 things, so let's get into it and then you expert owners can add to it:

• "M TwinPower Turbo V-8 engine"
Includes four water pumps, six radiators, and a dedicated transmission cooler.
How is that different than the M50i's "M TwinPower Turbo V-8 engine" & cooling?
Any tech docs, links?

School me up!

So this is what I can provide you if it help. Last year I was in Munich Germany Engine plant. I physically got to see the differences and ask questions regarding the difference. No pictures allowed inside the factory had to secure my cell phone before entering.

When they are running the N codes you will see blue parts bins for the V8. The reasoning for this is the parts in those bins are not the same as the parts entering the S code motors. There are some shared bins Yellow mostly bolts or bolt on attachments pulleys, sensors ect. Now when they have a S motor coming down (same for ALL S codes compared to N codes) they get the gray bins for parts (mostly internal parts, pistons, connecting rods, rings, valves, springs ect). They will also divert from the main assembly in some cases for manual assembly that the machine cannot do. From my understanding S motors use lighter, tighter tolerances, higher strength internals due to the nature of it being track focused build. Even the oil they put into the motor is different before it goes on to cold and hot testing. Also like stated before adding cooling ect are also apart of the mix.

The bottom line is you are not being sold the M badge for a tune, its much further than that and it goes back to the developers from the M team who created that spec. They take what is used on the track and put it into the M series vehicles.

The plant was awesome by the way and recommend anyone around Munich go check it out.

[GREENPUS]

Since the M cars get parts from the BLUE bin, does that mean they are all boys?

[Noneya]

I don't get the OP's question. I don't think this is the case, but suppose the answer was that the parts for both cars were taken from the same bin but were "tuned" differently - would that make the two somehow the same in your mind?

[Tenac]

Originally Posted by GREENPUS

Since the M cars get parts from the BLUE bin, does that mean they are all boys?

HAHAHA Mine is a she so I'd say nope.

[Noneya]

(Slightly old) article on engine differences: https://bimmerlife.com/2018/08/23/n6...and-evolution/.

Also this: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...them-the-same/

[bayarea328xit]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

• 6-piston front M compound brakes
ventilated, drilled brake discs provide maximum cooling and endurance.
This one I may know! The M50i's "M Sport Brakes" are, I think, 4-piston fronts and rotors are smaller but finding confirmation is hard

X7 Brake Summary

X5 Brake Summary

[ed4]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Yeah so I keep reading "ZOMG X5M is so much better bro!" posts, but yet nobody can detail why.

Really? Where? Can you share examples with us? I likely haven't caught anything of this sort, especially stated sensationally.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

"different parts" - really? Where is that documented? Not saying it's not true, just that nobody seems to have any tech details on this stuff which is odd for any M forum ...

Could you also be more specific here? Are you referring to just the engine and supporting hardware?

The rest is mostly in plain view, such as the brake calipers, floating rotors, front & rear bumpers, seats, etc. - we could go on. With all due respect, my 11-year old nephew could pick out the differences between an F95 and G05 M50i, if this point is understood.

Others are not so obvious, such as the M-specific dampers, iDrive software configuration.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I've been driving an M3/4 for 15 years and there's always TONS of technical info on why the M3 engine is "bespoke" but with the F95/6 seems like a lot of vague references to totally-better-bro but no details.

M3/4's are exceptional cars, however, many would not refer to or call the S54 engine "bespoke". Very advanced, powerful, sporty, class-rivaling - yes. When I think bespoke engines (call me unreasonable) I think of Huayra motors, LaFerrari's, 918 Spyders, etc. Any of these similarly classed engines.

The G80 also has a wealth of empirical data and media detailing the differences of the S58 motor & chassis dynamics when compared to an N58 & a G30 platform. BMW puts in more resources into marketing the M3/4 cars over others.

I recall the lack of documentation outlining the differences between an M850 (which is a tremendous car in its own right) and an M8 Competition. As seen when I was trying to get an M8 back in Dec 2020.

[SlowX6M]

I dont know about m50i vs true M when it comes to X5/X6 models, but I had a m235i and have a m2, and they are completely different. Body panels, lights, drivetrain, everything is different down to the fuel door.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Tenac

The bottom line is you are not being sold the M badge for a tune, its much further than that and it goes back to the developers from the M team who created that spec. They take what is used on the track and put it into the M series vehicles.

Yeeeaaahhhhh, that's a little grandiose for what's going on here, at least to my layman's eye, based on the docs ... basically BMW engineers build engines for specific applications and the S63 is a variant to account for slightly boosted horsepower but, more importantly, better oil cooling.

TL;DR
◆ The engines are extremely similar (same block, same materials, et al), even with the same torque (see pic below)

◆ However, the S63 has a few key upgraded components to account for higher horsepower (e.g., cylinder crown)

◆ And the S63's oil cooling (suction pump, outer oil sprayers) is significantly more robust to account for high-g lateral acceleration forces when tossing it around a track - this appears to be the core difference / improvement over the N63 for non-tuners.

Thus the S63 is a better platform (stays cooler longer at the limit) for frequent track or high speed canyon runs, and after-market tuning ... here's why:

My casual review of the tech docs, flipping between engines:

The S63B44T4 engine is ... an advancement of the S63B44T0 engine and technically based on the N63TU2 engine

• = S63
▸ = N63
[] = my words, except quotes(") obvs


ENGINE
• The crankcase cast part consists of the cylinder bores with Alusil raceways
▸ [same - "The cylinder walls of the N63B44M3 engine are made of Alusil."]

• additional bolt connection for the main bearing caps on the crankcase ... necessary to adapt the crankcase to the even higher power output and torque values of the S63T4 engine
▸ [Unclear - N63 may have this given same torque]

• The S63T4 engine uses newly developed cast pistons. The shape of the piston crown ... was modified in order to achieve a compression ratio of 10:1 ... as opposed to 10.5:1 in the N63TU2 ... In order to improve the drainage of oil in the S63T4 engine, the piston was fitted with an additional oil groove underneath the oil scraper ring groove
▸ [no cast pistons? no additional oil groove]

• The cylinder head of the S63T4 engine is based on the same concept as the N63TU2; Feed-throughs ... were specifically adapted to the cylinder head of the S63T4 engine
▸ [same integrated intake, but no adapted feedthroughs]

•The coolant flow in the cylinder head is separate from the coolant flow in the cylinder jackets... as is already the case for the N63TU2 engine
▸ [same cylinder head coolant flow]

• the S63T4 engine has an additional suction pump for the front oil sump ... ensures a secure oil supply, even when the oil level is displaced during lateral and longitudinal accelerations
▸ [no additional suction pump, other significant oil flow differences]

• The oil spray nozzles for piston crown cooling are used from the N63TU2 engine ... additional outer oil spray nozzles have been added ... the opening pressure and closing pressure have been adjusted
▸ [no outer oil spray nozzles, no adjusted pressure]

• The S63B44T4 engine has 2 exhaust turbochargers supplied by Honeywell ... As on the N63TU2 engine, a blow-off valve was removed.
▸ [same turbos]

• the fuel system pressure increase from 200 bar to 350 bar "design is already in use in the previous 3, 4 and 8-cylinder engines"
▸ [same]

• The cooling system too exhibits similarities to the S63B44T2 and N63TU2 engines. The engine and charge air cooling both have separate cooling circuits ... The coolant guide concept in the engine block and cylinder head was taken over from the N63TU2 engine
▸ [same - I did a lot of comparing docs and couldn't find any cooling differences incl the low-temperature charge air coolers, low-temp circuits, & engine oil air-coolant heat exchanger - if I missed something please correct!]


TRANSMISSION
• M automatic transmission with Drivelogic ... referred to as M8HP75 ... based on the 8HPTU ... further optimized control of the converter lockup clutch [via] a turbine torsional vibration damper. [also] the torque converter has been adapted to the increased torque of the S63T4 engine.
▸ [no vibro damper, but torque is the same in both engines thus same "adaptation"?]


M-xDrive
•The M xDrive ... is based on the all-wheel drive of the G12 with the ATC13 transfer case & M rear differential
▸ [same, though the M xdrive seems to have additional tuning for "allowing the M xDrive to bring the front axle to bear only when the rear wheels have reached their limits and additional traction force is required"]

Engine load diagram overlay - N63 in grey lines & text



Kinda hard to read, but basically the engines have similar low-end performance, but the S63 winds out more
• 553 lb-ft@1800-5600; 600HP@5600-6700
▸ 553 lb-ft@1800-4600; 523HP@5500

Clean up:


Net-net:
Extremely similar engines, with the S63 winding out just a bit more providing just that extra bit of fun. The S63 also has more track tolerance (though in the X5M the brakes may limit you pretty fast - see AutoTopNL autobahn review), and highly likely more tuning tolerance.

[elitex]

Ummm… just go drive them back to back like I did. Feeling is completely different. They feel so vastly different that it doesn't really matter how they got there.

The confidence and speeds you can take turns on X5M is just amazing. Front end grip is immediately noticeable.

What you are trying to claim can be said of most modern M cars. Difference in actual parts are shrinking and engineering in feeling and performance is going up.

[bobbis1]

Originally Posted by Ilyam5

if you look at M5 docs, you will see the difference in engine

Yeah weirdly they did not release an f95/6 specific doc- but certainly the engine is the same code as the f90 and a lot of the described brakes/suspension/mounts/bracing/etc in the f90 technical manual appear to have been done the f95. This whole narrative should similarly apply to the f90 vs g30 if you don’t think the changes are sufficient enough to warrant a a new chassis code. I will say the differences in the f90 comp vs regular appear to be more pronounced than f95 comp vs regular. Due to lack technical document I think there are still some debates about what those differences actually are.

[hdahman]

Originally Posted by Tenac

So this is what I can provide you if it help. Last year I was in Munich Germany Engine plant. I physically got to see the differences and ask questions regarding the difference. No pictures allowed inside the factory had to secure my cell phone before entering.

When they are running the N codes you will see blue parts bins for the V8. The reasoning for this is the parts in those bins are not the same as the parts entering the S code motors. There are some shared bins Yellow mostly bolts or bolt on attachments pulleys, sensors ect. Now when they have a S motor coming down (same for ALL S codes compared to N codes) they get the gray bins for parts (mostly internal parts, pistons, connecting rods, rings, valves, springs ect). They will also divert from the main assembly in some cases for manual assembly that the machine cannot do. From my understanding S motors use lighter, tighter tolerances, higher strength internals due to the nature of it being track focused build. Even the oil they put into the motor is different before it goes on to cold and hot testing. Also like stated before adding cooling ect are also apart of the mix.

The bottom line is you are not being sold the M badge for a tune, its much further than that and it goes back to the developers from the M team who created that spec. They take what is used on the track and put it into the M series vehicles.

The plant was awesome by the way and recommend anyone around Munich go check it out.

I regret not going there, while spending one year in Aachen, Germany, only visited Mercedes museum in Stuttgart! Should have visited both Porsche and BMW. But anyways I was so busy touring Europe on my weekends Hopefully sometime in future, but definitely will be on my bucket list.

[BobsM3Coupe]

Originally Posted by bobbis1

Yeah weirdly they did not release an f95/6 specific doc- but certainly the engine is the same code as the f90 and a lot of the described brakes/suspension/mounts/bracing/etc in the f90 technical manual appear to have been done the f95.

BMW does have the technical papers on the F95/F96.
IF you know your CA well and he/she has a connection at BMW Corporate, it's available.

[bobbis1]

Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe

BMW does have the technical papers on the F95/F96.
IF you know your CA well and he/she has a connection at BMW Corporate, it's available.

Anyway you can post a link

[gan23]

Originally Posted by bobbis1

Anyway you can post a link

I tried but nobody posted anything. As for myself, I don’t have access
https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1784527

[BobsM3Coupe]

Originally Posted by bobbis1

Anyway you can post a link

Believe me, I'd like to, but my CA, who I've known for a long time asked me not to post it. I don't want to possibly ruin that relationship.

[pookiemalibu]

Avoided posting on this thread initially. But my $.02.

in sum: You could have told me the massaging seats in the M50i came with a happy-ending and I'd still be in an F95 (Lord Willing). It looks, sounds and drives better (to me) and it's easily discernible to true Bimmer fans that it's another level of a car. Sure it's got the same engine or whatever but all the technical stats don't really matter (except horsepower and such -- to me). The (non-literal) ///M Competition Badge does though.

I considered both cars when shopping. My local dealer had an M50i with a similar spec to what I liked and I was close to pulling the trigger. Ultimately, I ended up going with an F95. It came purely down to aesthetic for me. Well that and being the BAMF with an X5MC. Plus I wanted the Sakhir Orange interior, seats and mirror caps. Overall, IMHO, just a better looking and feeling car. I like waking the neighbors when it cranks up.

Call me vain. Call me conceited. Call me pretentious. The monikers all fit and I'm not ashamed at all. I worked hard to get to a point where I'm blessed enough to afford the car I wanted so I got it. The F95 is just an overall better car. Period. Full stop.

M50i owners can try as they might to say it's the same car less the extra horsepower, seats and moldings. Once BMWNA agrees I'll retract my previous statements.

[Busa Dave]

I drove both and felt that the "M" was better suited to me and my wife. She liked the difference in the seats to the handling as well. She is not a motor head but it was her preference.

As posted above there are specific differences. Up to you personal preferences to choose.

Kind of like the new Ram 1500 I just bought this week. Yes I feel the TRX version is worth the difference. Not to mention it is a true beast.