[Quadruple VANOS]

We all have opinions; mine is B&W (home) is a “mainstream high-end” loudspeaker brand. I’d call it a brand like Porsche. Yea, there’s higher-end vehicle brands, but it’s still on the high-end of the spectrum. Same with B&W.

This is getting even more off topic, but let’s hope B&W doesn’t lose credibility. They’ve been going through tumultuous times with ownership the last few years. It would be a shame to see the brand become crap.

[jmciver]

For the OP, great job! As a fellow amateur car audio tuning DIY’er, I am just a bit ahead of you when it comes to using the same hardware and taking a stab at DIY tuning it.

I recently installed and DIY tuned a Match UP10DSP in my HK equipped F80 M3 (documenting my progress in the F3x 3-series forum). I am still tweaking my tune, using REW, with my most recent addition to my system being a trunk sub (and I plan to do an entire re-tune once I get the trunk sub installed).

You said you wanted to get more into REW, which I would definitely agree with and recommend. The DSP in the Match amps is very powerful and a (free) tuning tool like REW really helps to unlock the true capability of any DSP system, DIY'er or professional. If you have not seen this already, check out this tuning video series by this DIY’er. I did a ton of research on tuning, including using REW and I think this set of videos is a great starting point regarding tuning (with REW) for any DIY’er. He is even using the same tuning software by Audiotech:

I also have a HK equipped X7 with the same RAM system (and upgraded Bavsound speakers and underseat woofers). Admittedly, I am not sure if I want to install the same Match UP10DSP in my X7 based on what I have already done (I also coded the B&W DSP profiles to my X7, which are much better than the HK ones IMO). But your enthusiasm with this setup in your X5 has me thinking more about doing it now .

[PinkNinja400Guy]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Not true and greatly exagerated.

1.Yeah B&W make SOME great speakers. That’s it!
The research for analyzing sound, positions, materiales, reverberations and so on belongs strictly to Harman Kardon.
B&W practically enjoy those guys work by installing their better speakers.

2. Harman Kardon sounds amazing if you wait and give them the over 200 hours break-in period.

You don't get it. In automotive, B&W IS Harman. Harman group owns a bunch of brands or licenses brand names. B&W is a separate company, but they allow Harman to use their name. B&W does not make any automotive sound components. For automotive, Harman designs the B&W speakers & amps and controls the manufacture of the B&W parts.

In automotive, AKG, B&O, Mark Levinson, Harman/Kardon, B&W, Lexicon, ... are all engineered and designed by Harman - by the same engineers working at the same company. The speakers in a B&W BMW are not designed or manufactured by the same B&W that makes home speakers. The B&W speakers are designed by Harman engineers and manufactured in Chinese factories under contract to Harman. The actual B&W company has nothing to do with these automotive B&W speakers.

And the BMW H/K sound system is good, but not that good. Definitely not amazing. You're exaggerating with your #2.

[Tylast]

Originally Posted by SpiralOut

Haven't actually mounted it yet. I did not remove the HK Amp or the brackets, those will stay where they are. Right now it's sitting down in that little area behind the cover and doesn't really move around very much. When everything is set the way I want, I'll probably just zip tie it in there so it's more secure.

I installed my MatchUp 3 weeks ago (no regrets). Luckily I installed my Stealth Hitch prior to that & removing the rear panel will IMMENSELY help. Mind you that you need to remove the driver's side rear panel & not the passenger as depicted in this video (which should start at 8:50 but doesn't embedded in this post):

[Quadruple VANOS]

Originally Posted by PinkNinja400Guy

You don't get it. In automotive, B&W IS Harman. Harman group owns a bunch of brands or licenses brand names. B&W is a separate company, but they allow Harman to use their name. B&W does not make any automotive sound components. For automotive, Harman designs the B&W speakers & amps and controls the manufacture of the B&W parts.

In automotive, AKG, B&O, Mark Levinson, Harman/Kardon, B&W, Lexicon, ... are all engineered and designed by Harman - by the same engineers working at the same company. The speakers in a B&W BMW are not designed or manufactured by the same B&W that makes home speakers. The B&W speakers are designed by Harman engineers and manufactured in Chinese factories under contract to Harman. The actual B&W company has nothing to do with these automotive B&W speakers.

And the BMW H/K sound system is good, but not that good. Definitely not amazing. You're exaggerating with your #2.

This is true, but I’d like to give B&W enough credit to assume part of the licensing deal for automotive systems is that Bowers has final say over “voicing” the Harman-built system. I seriously doubt that is strictly a hands-off (ears-off?) deal just to use the name. They likely demand some relation between the sonic signature of their branded automotive systems, and their legacy products.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by ASAP

lol... in the audio world Bowers and Wilkins is like a Rolls Royce... whearas Bang and Olufsen and Harmon Kardon are at best BMW 3 series.

B&W makes all ranges of speakers. A B&O BeoLab 90 will likely outperform even the highest end B&W floor standing speakers. In the audiophile world you can easily go above either B&O (although the BeoLab 90’s are $90K a pair!) - such as Wilson Audio’s (some go over $200K) or even Focal’s Utopia line. Just saying…

B&W and Focal are in the same range and this upgrade was to Focal speakers and B&W grills from what I can tell. But we are not talking about B&W or Focal’s audiophile speakers here. Those would cost more than a fully loaded X5MC. 😊

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by curtdragon

I don't have Rolls Royce money so that's probably why I've never heard of it. 😆

There are many mid priced B&W gear. The only thing top tier about B&W in the X5 are the diamond tweeters (the front 2). The rest are lower end B&W gear…

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by PinkNinja400Guy

Yes. Harman has a bunch of audio engineers who help design the systems, then they slap a brand (H/K, B&W, B&O, Lexicon, ...) onto it for marketing purposes. But each system is unique.

The engineering for each car is different, and the components can be of varying quality. I'm not sure whether an Audi B&O speaker is the same quality as a Volvo B&O speaker, but those B&O speakers are definitely different from B&W speakers and H/K speakers, even though they're all designed by Harman.

The car manufacturer decides how much $$$ they want to allocate to audio, Harman works with them to design a system at that price point. Which is why Audi B&O and Volvo B&O and BMW B&W and Genesis Lexicon can have vastly different sound quality, even though they're all from the top Harman brands and cost roughly the same amount of money to add as an option.

And the engineering behind this can be very complex, things like the exact positioning of the speakers are critical. Ideally the car manufacturer plans for this in the very initial stages of development and is able to design the door panels to accommodate the speakers in the best way. Things like the materials used on the inside of the car can also have an impact.

So even if all B&O car speakers are identical, there can still be a big difference between for example and Audi 16-speaker B&O system and a Volvo 16-speaker B&O system. Because Volvo might budget more money for their sound system - both the actual parts (speakers, amp) and may spend more engineering time/$ on designing the entire rest of the car to get the best sound [...]

☝️ this.

[bunker]

everything in this post is really impressive, and you deserve a load of credit for having done this work yourself. there's exactly zero chance I could execute this. I'm really impressed with people who can do this kind of thing.

but do I understand correctly you bought counterfeit grilles from AliExpress and you're using your post to promote those counterfeit products?

because, you know, that's fully fucked up, and I'm pretty sure Bimmerpost shouldn't be supporting that activity.

[PinkNinja400Guy]

Originally Posted by bunker

everything in this post is really impressive, and you deserve a load of credit for having done this work yourself. there's exactly zero chance I could execute this. I'm really impressed with people who can do this kind of thing.

but do I understand correctly you bought counterfeit grilles from AliExpress and you're using your post to promote those counterfeit products?

because, you know, that's fully fucked up, and I'm pretty sure Bimmerpost shouldn't be supporting that activity.

Extremely unlikely that they're counterfeit. Gray market would be a more appropriate term. From my X7 forum post:

BMW runs manufacturing operations in China; it's a big market for them. They have a joint venture with a local group and the overall operation is called BMW Brilliance. In general, for things that are manufactured in China, factories will often run a "night shift" where they produce extra units to sell on the gray market. These units be just as good as the official parts, or they may be manufactured with cheaper subcomponents and/or have worse QC. And obviously the Chinese also separately manufacture & export lots of knockoffs and fake goods.

For these specific items that I got, it's hard to say whether they are legitimate or knockoffs. I'm leaning more towards the side of legit, but not sure. Ultimately what matters are the results, and the results are that these sound better than the H/K setup and that the speaker grilles + LED lighting look just like an OEM B&W system. So I'm happy with it and I'd do it again if I got another X7.

Looking at the parts I got from China, they look like legit OEM parts. They have lots of details on the plastic moldings that a knockoff wouldn't bother to replicate. Fit and finish is perfect.

[Mattnet]

Awesome work

[RL18]

Why you use earthquakes? They aren’t even that good plus they can’t play high enough to properly crossover with the 4” midranges. The b&w underseat woofers are a way better choice. They take more power 250w each, can play as high as 400hz and as low as 25hz, and they drop in w/o and spacers or mods.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by PinkNinja400Guy

You don't get it. In automotive, B&W IS Harman. Harman group owns a bunch of brands or licenses brand names. B&W is a separate company, but they allow Harman to use their name. B&W does not make any automotive sound components. For automotive, Harman designs the B&W speakers & amps and controls the manufacture of the B&W parts.

In automotive, AKG, B&O, Mark Levinson, Harman/Kardon, B&W, Lexicon, ... are all engineered and designed by Harman - by the same engineers working at the same company. The speakers in a B&W BMW are not designed or manufactured by the same B&W that makes home speakers. The B&W speakers are designed by Harman engineers and manufactured in Chinese factories under contract to Harman. The actual B&W company has nothing to do with these automotive B&W speakers.

And the BMW H/K sound system is good, but not that good. Definitely not amazing. You're exaggerating with your #2.

The X1 E84 FULL Logic7 with THX and Equalizer is really good. (very few got that option as it was cancelled after a few months as the car was a bargain for the money).

Samsung bought HK on 2017. All the previous cars where usually assigned to harman kardon to analyse, design and implement competitive sound systems. Before BMW got cheap like today, some serious work was done in these cars.

Today, the new cars do not benefit from the same serious design and sound study. The new recipe is “aproximately ok position” relying on the quality of the speaker to compensate. Many times the angle and the materials, location, echos, sound reflex, etc. can beat ten times a better speaker.
An excelent speaker will be impacted by the floor, ceiling height, wide, walls, materials around it, angle of sitting, cables, power supply, amplifier, etc…
Same speakers will never sound the same in differente environments. From angles and accoustics to materials and insulation everthing plays a role.

PS
BW “being” HK means nothing as a concept. Or It might mean something today as in truth, neither my 2021 M340 nor my 2021 X4 both loaded to the teeth do not sound that good.

[PinkNinja400Guy]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Samsung bought HK on 2017. All the previous cars where usually assigned to harman kardon to analyse, design and implement competitive sound systems. Before BMW got cheap like today, some serious work was done in these cars.

Today, the new cars do not benefit from the same serious design and sound study. The new recipe is “aproximately ok position” relying on the quality of the speaker to compensate. Many times the angle and the materials, location, echos, sound reflex, etc. can beat ten times a better speaker.

Right, that's why every reviewer who tests the iX or i7 is blown away by the new B&W system and says that it's one of the best (if not the best) sound system on the market. It's because BMW got cheap and slacked on designing the car and positioning the speakers. Makes sense.

11 minutes: https://youtu.be/F6BG6q6rHHA?t=660

Originally Posted by Teutonic

BW “being” HK means nothing as a concept. Or It might mean something today as in truth, neither my 2021 M340 nor my 2021 X4 both loaded to the teeth do not sound that good.

But your 3 series don't have B&W branded sound systems, do they? A fully loaded 3/4 would have HK audio.

[xmanpro]

For a stock unmodified ride - If there’s an available B&W option, it will sound better than whatever else is factory available no matter what. BMW did a great job moving their top tier option from B&O over to B&W, HK is solid but not the same.

[Vyper340]

If the B&W system is the car (2022 X5MC) is there a value to upgrading the subs?

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Vyper340

If the B&W system is the car (2022 X5MC) is there a value to upgrading the subs?

Depends on what your goals are…. If you want to add more bass without adding a trunk sub, then upgrading the underseat woofers to the Earthquake subs with a separate, small amp to power them is the way to go for the most amount of bass from speakers in those spots, IMO. If you want more, crisp bass (as underseat woofers can only do but so much), then you should do a trunk sub and can get away with leaving the stock underseat woofers in place.

You could also upgrade the underseat woofers in the second scenario I described above (I did). But it will take some audio system tuning to take full advantage of other aftermarket woofers in most cases, IMO…

[Vyper340]

Thanks. So the Earthquake option really needs added power over what the B&W provides? Was wondering if getting a little better deeper bass was possible.

[jmciver]

Thanks. So the Earthquake option really needs added power over what the B&W provides? Was wondering if getting a little better deeper bass was possible.
The Earthquakes come in two variants: 2-ohm and 4-ohm. I don't know the ohm rating of the stock B&W woofers, but they are most likely either 4-ohm or 8-ohm. The Earthquakes can take 150 watts RMS, but I don't know how much power the B&W amp sends to the underseat woofers.

I have not actually tried the Earthquakes, but many have with very good success and the consensus is that the Earthquakes are most effective when paired with a separate amp powering them at 150 watts RMS each. A popular amp for this application is the Audiocontrol ACM-2.300 as it is a compact, all-in-one amp and line output converter (LOC) solution. After the amp and the woofers, all you need is the correct PnP harness made by a company called TechnicPnP for a nice, and easily reversible sound upgrade.

Edit:
Just for clarification since this is a bit OT in this thread…. What I described above is just to add additional bass to the stock HK system using aftermarket underseat woofers (the Earthquakes in this case) and an external amp (the Audiocontrol ACM-2.300). If you install the Match UP10 DSP as the OP did, you do not need the additional Audiocontrol amp as the UP10 DSP has two specific output channels to send 160 watts at 2 ohms to the underseat woofers.

[xueju1121]

The feeling after reading the entire thread:

My brain: I think I got the hang of it.
My hands: No, you ain’t.

But seriously, tho, B&W is much better than the stock HK. I had HK in my 22 X5M Comp and B&W in my 23 IX. The difference is night and day.

Excellent job, OP!

[Herofmine]

Originally Posted by SpiralOut

Step 2 - Upgrading Stock Subs to Earthquakes:

I upgraded the underseat Subs to the Earthquake SWS-8Xi 2-Ohm subs. Install on these was pretty straightforward, lot’s of good youtube videos on this process. Stock ones are glued in which is a pain, but with a heat gun or a hairdryer you can pry them out pretty easily. I ordered a pair of subs through Amazon and they came with the adapter rings so you don’t need to by those separately. You will need to cut those OEM wires though to connect them..... or you could use some type of wire connecter to connect them. If you cut them, just make sure you don't cut them too short.

I ordered these: https://www.amazon.com/Earthquake-Sound-SWS-8Xi-Shallow-Subwoofer/dp/B06X41HZ75/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1V0X3MJS9J8AY&keywords=earthquake% 2Bsws&qid=1671467690&s=electronics&sprefix=earthqu ake%2Bsws%2Celectronics%2C79&sr=1-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.fa474cd8-6dfc-4bad-a280-890f5a4e2f90&th=1

And here's a Vid on getting the sub's out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e___1jZ3s5o

After Step 2, bass sound is definitely better….. it’s actually a bit too strong since there’s still not enough power going to the main speakers from the HK amp. It does allow you to turn the bass down on the whole system which helps overall sound clarity a bit, but it’s still not great and missing some midrange. If you always listen to music at low volume levels this may be good enough for you, but I still wanted to take it further and add an amp.

Hey, what ohm sub did you install? I see H&K uses 8 ohm subs and non h&k uses 2 ohm.

It’s very important to use correct ohm, I am going to follow your diy process with h&k upgrade.

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Herofmine

Hey, what ohm sub did you install? I see H&K uses 8 ohm subs and non h&k uses 2 ohm.

It’s very important to use correct ohm, I am going to follow your diy process with h&k upgrade.

The OP installed an aftermarket amp to power all of the speakers, the Match UP10DSP, which has two specific output channels that can send 160 watts RMS at 2 ohms to the underseat woofers.