[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

This is not true at all, the differences between the M60i and the X5M are vast. Other than the engine, there is very little in common between them.

The suspension is the same with different software tuning. The engine is the same with different tuning. There's some body trim differences, brake differences, and assorted M bits like stitching and the M buttons and some extra chassis braces.

The 50e has a totally different motor, completely different bumpers, completely different suspension, drives totally different... It's a totally different car.

Every single review of the M50, M60, M550, etc all said "this makes the base M redundant because this is so close to it but beats you up less". Even BMW agrees, they dropped the regular M and are only offering the Competition model.

The M.is cool and all, but BMW did too good of a job with their recent M Performance models, and made the less extreme M models redundant.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The suspension is the same with different software tuning. The engine is the same with different tuning. There's some body trim differences, brake differences, and assorted M bits like stitching and the M buttons and some extra chassis braces.

The 50e has a totally different motor, completely different bumpers, completely different suspension, drives totally different... It's a totally different car.

Every single review of the M50, M60, M550, etc all said "this makes the base M redundant because this is so close to it but beats you up less". Even BMW agrees, they dropped the regular M and are only offering the Competition model.

The M.is cool and all, but BMW did too good of a job with their recent M Performance models, and made the less extreme M models redundant.

I am not so sure this part is true about the suspension. As for "M performance model is so close ... " Probably true for straight line. It has always been the case. But M cars are a lot more than only straight line performance.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The suspension is the same with different software tuning. The engine is the same with different tuning. There's some body trim differences, brake differences, and assorted M bits like stitching and the M buttons and some extra chassis braces.

The 50e has a totally different motor, completely different bumpers, completely different suspension, drives totally different... It's a totally different car.

Every single review of the M50, M60, M550, etc all said "this makes the base M redundant because this is so close to it but beats you up less". Even BMW agrees, they dropped the regular M and are only offering the Competition model.

The M.is cool and all, but BMW did too good of a job with their recent M Performance models, and made the less extreme M models redundant.

^^^^^This.

[matowi]

As a prospective M60i owner (it’s on order), I’d actually welcome a proper breakdown of the differences between M60 and proper X5M

Seems to me, the public here is split. Even when you scroll up a bit, you will note two quite volcal members of this community beginning their replies to a post trying to capture these differences as in: “you are totally wrong”, while the other remarks “this is 100% right”. Confusion ensues

I failed to find a reliable write up of differences in:

- engine tuning
- gearbox model / tuning
- suspensions components and tuning (I’d put my money on there being changes both in hardware and software)
- body and underbody bracing
- swaybars
- exhaust
- sound deadening
- brakes
- tires / rims

That’s the short list of stuff that pops to my mind when thinking of where the “M” bits may be different from the regular M60i. I doubt this is a comprehensive set and I’m curious to learn what I omitted (for sure some beauty bits in- and outside)

Happy to hear your thoughts (maybe a separate thread?)

[roamio]

Originally Posted by matowi

As a prospective M60i owner (it’s on order), I’d actually welcome a proper breakdown of the differences between M60 and proper X5M

Seems to me, the public here is split. Even when you scroll up a bit, you will note two quite volcal members of this community beginning their replies to a post trying to capture these differences as in: “you are totally wrong”, while the other remarks “this is 100% right”. Confusion ensues

I failed to find a reliable write up of differences in:

- engine tuning
- gearbox model / tuning
- suspensions components and tuning (I’d put my money on there being changes both in hardware and software)
- body and underbody bracing
- swaybars
- exhaust
- sound deadening
- brakes
- tires / rims

That’s the short list of stuff that pops to my mind when thinking of where the “M” bits may be different from the regular M60i. I doubt this is a comprehensive set and I’m curious to learn what I omitted (for sure some beauty bits in- and outside)

Happy to hear your thoughts (maybe a separate thread?)

It will be hard to find real comparison. One option is to search BMW online parts stores and see components for both cars. For example suspension parts like bushings, arms, stabilizers and so on. Generator, alternator, turbos blah, blah blah....

[matowi]

Yes, very tedious work to be done… anyone with friends at some BMW parts wholesalers? 😇

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

I am not so sure this part is true about the suspension. As for "M performance model is so close ... " Probably true for straight line. It has always been the case. But M cars are a lot more than only straight line performance.

Pretty sure the part numbers for struts/shocks are the same for all the active suspension X5s. Spring rates might be different. Sway bars are likely shared if you have active roll bars. The tuning appears to be the big difference.

Someone who's better at part numbers could likely confirm.

[kfresh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Pretty sure the part numbers for struts/shocks are the same for all the active suspension X5s. Spring rates might be different. Sway bars are likely shared if you have active roll bars. The tuning appears to be the big difference.

Someone who's better at part numbers could likely confirm.

Would like some clarification on this too. In the past, M-lite and full M models would only share 10-20% of the parts and they would be things like interior trim pieces, doors, and basic none performance parts. If this is true, they went bonkers on the M-lite verions.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by matowi

As a prospective M60i owner (it’s on order), I’d actually welcome a proper breakdown of the differences between M60 and proper X5M

Seems to me, the public here is split. Even when you scroll up a bit, you will note two quite volcal members of this community beginning their replies to a post trying to capture these differences as in: “you are totally wrong”, while the other remarks “this is 100% right”. Confusion ensues

I failed to find a reliable write up of differences in:

- engine tuning
- gearbox model / tuning
- suspensions components and tuning (I’d put my money on there being changes both in hardware and software)
- body and underbody bracing
- swaybars
- exhaust
- sound deadening
- brakes
- tires / rims

That’s the short list of stuff that pops to my mind when thinking of where the “M” bits may be different from the regular M60i. I doubt this is a comprehensive set and I’m curious to learn what I omitted (for sure some beauty bits in- and outside)

Happy to hear your thoughts (maybe a separate thread?)

X5MC has 21/22" wheels, with 295 fronts and 315 rears. The M performance models with the 22" wheels are 275 fronts. This to me says they were trying to reduce understeer some, not that I've noted a lot of understeer.

Gearboxes will be ZF 8 speeds regardless. They might be using a higher torque rated version, but for the most power differences, I doubt it.

X5M doesn't offer 4 wheel steering, but does come with actove roll bars. Functionally, there would be no reason to have that part be different, you would just adjust the tuning of it to create desired differences.

X5M brakes to appear.to be larger, with different calipers. Searching shows a thread where a guy swapped.them.over for $1600. He notes that the rear X5M brakes are a few mm larger rotors, but the same single piston sliding design,.so he opted not to upgrade those.

The X5M and Competition are certainly amazing vehicles... But so is the M Performance version, and it's clearly boosted and cannibalized sales enough to justify killing the regular M version.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by kfresh

Would like some clarification on this too. In the past, M-lite and full M models would only share 10-20% of the parts and they would be things like interior trim pieces, doors, and basic none performance parts. If this is true, they went bonkers on the M-lite verions.

Yes, I would like to see the part list too. I am more family with early E series M cars. These older M car has different subframe to begin with, so very few parts are the same. For G05, I will be very surprise if the body bracing and suspension components are exactly the same between M and non M.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The suspension is the same with different software tuning. The engine is the same with different tuning. There's some body trim differences, brake differences, and assorted M bits like stitching and the M buttons and some extra chassis braces.

The 50e has a totally different motor, completely different bumpers, completely different suspension, drives totally different... It's a totally different car.

Every single review of the M50, M60, M550, etc all said "this makes the base M redundant because this is so close to it but beats you up less". Even BMW agrees, they dropped the regular M and are only offering the Competition model.

The M.is cool and all, but BMW did too good of a job with their recent M Performance models, and made the less extreme M models redundant.

Not true at all, this has been discussed ad nauseam. There are tons of differences between the two. You can do a search or when I get home and have time will post some links.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by kfresh

Would like some clarification on this too. In the past, M-lite and full M models would only share 10-20% of the parts and they would be things like interior trim pieces, doors, and basic none performance parts. If this is true, they went bonkers on the M-lite verions.

It is still that way, very little meaningful sharing between the two.

[TurtleBoy]

Here is a few of the differences posted last year in the "Is it technically an M Car" thread. Obviously the answer was no.

Gearbox F95/96 GM8HP76Z M automatic transmission with Drivelogic is based off of 8HPTU2 gearbox and benefit from significantly improved gear shift responsiveness and even further optimized control of the converter lock-up clutch.

M xDrive used on the F95/F96 is based on the all-wheel drive system of the G12 with the ATC13 transfer box and has been carried over from the F90. The torque generated by the engine is stepped up in the automatic transmission and is supplied
via the transmission output shaft to the transfer box. The transfer box forming the next stage in the drivetrain has the task of varying the torque distribution between the front and rear wheels across the full range from 0:100 % to 100:0 % as demanded by the driving situation

Drivetrain, front drive shaft was taken over from the G12 for the F95/F96..

Active M Differential carry-over from the F90 and provides Demand-controlled lock. The lock is a demand-controlled rear axle differential lock which is active in the following situations:

• Pullaway
• Differential speed at the rear axle for straight-ahead driving under tension due to various coefficients of friction, left/right
• M dynamic cornering tensioned
• Power oversteer (drifting)
• Stabilization in coasting/overrun mode

Adaptive M suspension (EDC)
Similar to the G05/G06, EDC control valves are also installed at the shock absorbers on the outside. The shock absorbers have been developed with the supplier ZF Sachs and the system has been adapted to the F95/F96.

The EDC works with infinitely variable valves in the absorbers. The hydraulic oil flow is controlled
via electromagnetic control valves. It is thus possible to make available the damping force actually required at all times.

The following variables, among others, were processed into the corresponding control variables in the M vertical dynamic platform (M VDP): vertical acceleration, wheel speeds M DSCi, steering angle change M EPS, angle change rate ACSM and damper piston speed.

In addition, the ride height between the wheel suspension and body is used as a control, reference and load variable and is read off of the ride height sensors of the headlights. Two sensors each are installed at the front and rear. They operate on the basis of the potentiometer principle and their signal is made available to the M vertical dynamic platform (M VDP).

Suspension front axle, double-wishbone front axle from the G05/G06 is used as the front axle. Compared to the standard suspension, the front axle was not lowered. A upper triangular wishbone was adapted in order to achieve the M-specific higher camber values for sportier suspension settings. The rubber mounts of the lower wishbone and the tension strut have been adapted for the F95/F96. The spring strut has been adapted by a separate damper variant together with the coil spring to the F95/F96 and bolted at the top by a newly dimensioned support bearing in the spring strut dome; in addition, the auxiliary damper, installed between the shock absorber and the support bearing on the piston rod, has been adapted.


Suspension rear axle, five-link rear axle known from the G05/G06 is used as the rear axle. The rear axle support of the F95/F96 is however supported by the incorporation of Cellasto discs at the top and bottom of the bolting points of the rear axle bearings. The incorporation of Cellasto discs at the front prevents the rear axle support from tilting at the rear axle support bearings in the event of a marked load reversal. The rear axle support bearings have been adapted in terms of a harder design to the F95/F96. The shock absorbers have been adapted to the F95/F96 by a separate damper variant with outer EDC valves together with the coil spring and bolted at the top with a newly dimensioned support bearing. In addition, the auxiliary spring, installed between the shock absorber and the support bearing on the piston rod, has been adapted. All rubber mounts of the suspension arms have been adapted to the M- specific model.


Rear area of the F95/96, attaching the chassis and suspension components and increasing the vehicle rigidity have implemented in the rear end of the vehicle:
• Strut block adopted from G05/G06
• Tension struts with connection to the strut block and to the rear door sill, front rear axle support
• Triangular struts with connection at door sill, rear axle support at the front and driveshaft

Front area of F95/96, attaching the chassis components and increasing the vehicle rigidity have been implemented in the front end area:
• Dome bulk head struts
• Combined dome-front-end strut
• Stiffening plat

https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1893241

[BlkGS]

Just as a funny story, I picked up my X5 M50 from service this evening. Pulled up next to it, thought to myself "weird they put it on the sales side of the lot and not service". Parked next to my car to pick up my.keysbthrn switch out car seats. Get out, walk towards the building, get about 5 feet away, and I realize something isn't right. I turn around and look at my car, that's when I notice the M badge on the grille. I think, I don't remember that. Then I notice the headlights look a little different. Then I realize, it's not my car. It's a new X5M. It just looks identical until you look for the differences.

Anyways, how did we get on X5Ms in a thread about the X3 M40i?

[aussieintexas]

[QUOTE=tooloud10;30726571]That's exactly how I read it too. I happen to agree in the sense that if I was looking for an SUV that performed better than a 50e, I would skip the rest of the X5 lineup above it and head over to the Porsche dealer.

Just shopped that a week ago. You pay a huge premium for similar performance - to the M60 and the M.
I laughed when I saw a Macan with cool quad pipes and looked excellent to see it has a 2.0 turbocharged 4 cyl … love the look and performance of the higher end cayenne GTS etc but $$$$

[roamio]

[QUOTE=aussieintexas;30727734]

Originally Posted by tooloud10

That's exactly how I read it too. I happen to agree in the sense that if I was looking for an SUV that performed better than a 50e, I would skip the rest of the X5 lineup above it and head over to the Porsche dealer.

Just shopped that a week ago. You pay a huge premium for similar performance - to the M60 and the M.
I laughed when I saw a Macan with cool quad pipes and looked excellent to see it has a 2.0 turbocharged 4 cyl … love the look and performance of the higher end cayenne GTS etc but $$$$

I think Macan is more X3 competitor than X5. It's just too small.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Here is a few of the differences posted last year in the "Is it technically an M Car" thread. Obviously the answer was no.

Gearbox F95/96 GM8HP76Z M automatic transmission with Drivelogic is based off of 8HPTU2 gearbox and benefit from significantly improved gear shift responsiveness and even further optimized control of the converter lock-up clutch.

M xDrive used on the F95/F96 is based on the all-wheel drive system of the G12 with the ATC13 transfer box and has been carried over from the F90. The torque generated by the engine is stepped up in the automatic transmission and is supplied
via the transmission output shaft to the transfer box. The transfer box forming the next stage in the drivetrain has the task of varying the torque distribution between the front and rear wheels across the full range from 0:100 % to 100:0 % as demanded by the driving situation

Drivetrain, front drive shaft was taken over from the G12 for the F95/F96..

Active M Differential carry-over from the F90 and provides Demand-controlled lock. The lock is a demand-controlled rear axle differential lock which is active in the following situations:

• Pullaway
• Differential speed at the rear axle for straight-ahead driving under tension due to various coefficients of friction, left/right
• M dynamic cornering tensioned
• Power oversteer (drifting)
• Stabilization in coasting/overrun mode

Adaptive M suspension (EDC)
Similar to the G05/G06, EDC control valves are also installed at the shock absorbers on the outside. The shock absorbers have been developed with the supplier ZF Sachs and the system has been adapted to the F95/F96.

The EDC works with infinitely variable valves in the absorbers. The hydraulic oil flow is controlled
via electromagnetic control valves. It is thus possible to make available the damping force actually required at all times.

The following variables, among others, were processed into the corresponding control variables in the M vertical dynamic platform (M VDP): vertical acceleration, wheel speeds M DSCi, steering angle change M EPS, angle change rate ACSM and damper piston speed.

In addition, the ride height between the wheel suspension and body is used as a control, reference and load variable and is read off of the ride height sensors of the headlights. Two sensors each are installed at the front and rear. They operate on the basis of the potentiometer principle and their signal is made available to the M vertical dynamic platform (M VDP).

Suspension front axle, double-wishbone front axle from the G05/G06 is used as the front axle. Compared to the standard suspension, the front axle was not lowered. A upper triangular wishbone was adapted in order to achieve the M-specific higher camber values for sportier suspension settings. The rubber mounts of the lower wishbone and the tension strut have been adapted for the F95/F96. The spring strut has been adapted by a separate damper variant together with the coil spring to the F95/F96 and bolted at the top by a newly dimensioned support bearing in the spring strut dome; in addition, the auxiliary damper, installed between the shock absorber and the support bearing on the piston rod, has been adapted.


Suspension rear axle, five-link rear axle known from the G05/G06 is used as the rear axle. The rear axle support of the F95/F96 is however supported by the incorporation of Cellasto discs at the top and bottom of the bolting points of the rear axle bearings. The incorporation of Cellasto discs at the front prevents the rear axle support from tilting at the rear axle support bearings in the event of a marked load reversal. The rear axle support bearings have been adapted in terms of a harder design to the F95/F96. The shock absorbers have been adapted to the F95/F96 by a separate damper variant with outer EDC valves together with the coil spring and bolted at the top with a newly dimensioned support bearing. In addition, the auxiliary spring, installed between the shock absorber and the support bearing on the piston rod, has been adapted. All rubber mounts of the suspension arms have been adapted to the M- specific model.


Rear area of the F95/96, attaching the chassis and suspension components and increasing the vehicle rigidity have implemented in the rear end of the vehicle:
• Strut block adopted from G05/G06
• Tension struts with connection to the strut block and to the rear door sill, front rear axle support
• Triangular struts with connection at door sill, rear axle support at the front and driveshaft

Front area of F95/96, attaching the chassis components and increasing the vehicle rigidity have been implemented in the front end area:
• Dome bulk head struts
• Combined dome-front-end strut
• Stiffening plat

https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1893241

Wow, thank you. Such a good detail description.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

Wow, thank you. Such a good detail description.

Hear is some more info from the technical docs.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Here is a few of the differences posted last year in the "Is it technically an M Car" thread. Obviously the answer was no.

Gearbox F95/96 GM8HP76Z M automatic transmission with Drivelogic is based off of 8HPTU2 gearbox and benefit from significantly improved gear shift responsiveness and even further optimized control of the converter lock-up clutch.

M xDrive used on the F95/F96 is based on the all-wheel drive system of the G12 with the ATC13 transfer box and has been carried over from the F90. The torque generated by the engine is stepped up in the automatic transmission and is supplied
via the transmission output shaft to the transfer box. The transfer box forming the next stage in the drivetrain has the task of varying the torque distribution between the front and rear wheels across the full range from 0:100 % to 100:0 % as demanded by the driving situation

Drivetrain, front drive shaft was taken over from the G12 for the F95/F96..

Active M Differential carry-over from the F90 and provides Demand-controlled lock. The lock is a demand-controlled rear axle differential lock which is active in the following situations:

• Pullaway
• Differential speed at the rear axle for straight-ahead driving under tension due to various coefficients of friction, left/right
• M dynamic cornering tensioned
• Power oversteer (drifting)
• Stabilization in coasting/overrun mode

Adaptive M suspension (EDC)
Similar to the G05/G06, EDC control valves are also installed at the shock absorbers on the outside. The shock absorbers have been developed with the supplier ZF Sachs and the system has been adapted to the F95/F96.

The EDC works with infinitely variable valves in the absorbers. The hydraulic oil flow is controlled
via electromagnetic control valves. It is thus possible to make available the damping force actually required at all times.

The following variables, among others, were processed into the corresponding control variables in the M vertical dynamic platform (M VDP): vertical acceleration, wheel speeds M DSCi, steering angle change M EPS, angle change rate ACSM and damper piston speed.

In addition, the ride height between the wheel suspension and body is used as a control, reference and load variable and is read off of the ride height sensors of the headlights. Two sensors each are installed at the front and rear. They operate on the basis of the potentiometer principle and their signal is made available to the M vertical dynamic platform (M VDP).

Suspension front axle, double-wishbone front axle from the G05/G06 is used as the front axle. Compared to the standard suspension, the front axle was not lowered. A upper triangular wishbone was adapted in order to achieve the M-specific higher camber values for sportier suspension settings. The rubber mounts of the lower wishbone and the tension strut have been adapted for the F95/F96. The spring strut has been adapted by a separate damper variant together with the coil spring to the F95/F96 and bolted at the top by a newly dimensioned support bearing in the spring strut dome; in addition, the auxiliary damper, installed between the shock absorber and the support bearing on the piston rod, has been adapted.


Suspension rear axle, five-link rear axle known from the G05/G06 is used as the rear axle. The rear axle support of the F95/F96 is however supported by the incorporation of Cellasto discs at the top and bottom of the bolting points of the rear axle bearings. The incorporation of Cellasto discs at the front prevents the rear axle support from tilting at the rear axle support bearings in the event of a marked load reversal. The rear axle support bearings have been adapted in terms of a harder design to the F95/F96. The shock absorbers have been adapted to the F95/F96 by a separate damper variant with outer EDC valves together with the coil spring and bolted at the top with a newly dimensioned support bearing. In addition, the auxiliary spring, installed between the shock absorber and the support bearing on the piston rod, has been adapted. All rubber mounts of the suspension arms have been adapted to the M- specific model.


Rear area of the F95/96, attaching the chassis and suspension components and increasing the vehicle rigidity have implemented in the rear end of the vehicle:
• Strut block adopted from G05/G06
• Tension struts with connection to the strut block and to the rear door sill, front rear axle support
• Triangular struts with connection at door sill, rear axle support at the front and driveshaft

Front area of F95/96, attaching the chassis components and increasing the vehicle rigidity have been implemented in the front end area:
• Dome bulk head struts
• Combined dome-front-end strut
• Stiffening plat

https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1893241

Longist, but translating most.of that from marketing to engineering, most of it reads as "basically the same". The transmission has different shift logic. The differential may be different, would need to check part numbers. There's a different front upper control arm to increase camber. There's some.extra bracing that puts tension on parts of the chassis to increase its rigidity.

What you're seeing is really minor things. Differences, sure, but nothing huge, mainly just the normal tuning tricks a home building a car would do. I suspect you would be very hard pressed to notice a difference off of a track, other than the chassis and suspension being stiffer and less forgiving.

I was pretty much dead set on an X5MC going in. I figured if you're gonna do something, go all out. I drove the M50i on a whim, because all the reviews I saw said they'd buy the Performance version over the full M. When I drove it, I got what they were saying. I thought it was going to be too soft for me, I'm used to sports cars and hard edged stuff. I was surprised by just how good the M50i was, it outside the SQ7, it blew the Durango SRT out of the water, it made the MDX Type S look silly. Explorer ST had a great chassis and a decent powertrain but it made that look pedestrian. The M Performance team knocked it somfsr out of the park it's insane.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Longist, but translating most.of that from marketing to engineering, most of it reads as "basically the same". The transmission has different shift logic. The differential may be different, would need to check part numbers. There's a different front upper control arm to increase camber. There's some.extra bracing that puts tension on parts of the chassis to increase its rigidity.

What you're seeing is really minor things. Differences, sure, but nothing huge, mainly just the normal tuning tricks a home building a car would do. I suspect you would be very hard pressed to notice a difference off of a track, other than the chassis and suspension being stiffer and less forgiving.

.

That is funny.

Whether people have the ability to use the performance difference in the X5M is not part of the conversation.

[TurtleBoy]

Maybe a visual representation of the differences between the models would be easier. This is courtesy of Iconoclast.

[BlkGS]

Well, now that the M guys have justified their extra spend in their minds (maybe?)...

The 50e is absolutely the future. Frankly, I'm surprised that BMW has t done an M50e with the full meat B58, or even an S58 and the PHEV drivetrain. Throw all the other M performance stuff at it, you'd have a hell of a package, especially for markets outside of theUS that can't have the V8s due to government issues.

Rumors are that the next X7 will only have a V8 in the US (likely the same for X5), so maybe the M PHEV will be released then.