[ramparts]

All of my music is in Apple lossless - spent weeks ripping them. And on CarPlay, I can tel which songs are from those rips, in full quality, and tracks that are from Apple Music ( which is stuck at 256kb aac still ).
Would happily pay another 5 a month for a lossless version, didn't like tidals app

[superkrups20056]

Originally Posted by davidoff86

All of my music is in Apple lossless - spent weeks ripping them. And on CarPlay, I can tel which songs are from those rips, in full quality, and tracks that are from Apple Music ( which is stuck at 256kb aac still ).
Would happily pay another 5 a month for a lossless version, didn't like tidals app

Thanks, this is good info. Have you subjectively compared lossless wireless CarPlay playback to lossless iDrive wired (with lightning cable) playback at all?

[ramparts]

Originally Posted by superkrups20056

Thanks, this is good info. Have you subjectively compared lossless wireless CarPlay playback to lossless iDrive wired (with lightning cable) playback at all?

I have! When the dealer updated my car and wiped out CarPlay lol.

Sounded the same tbh

[aesop_tortoise]

Remember not to confuse the format with the quality.

You can make a FLAC or ALAC file out of any sound quality: from 320kbit/16-48khz (mp3) to 16bit/44khz (CD quality) to 24bit/96khz (the highest quality currently possible). It'll still have that same quality as whatever it was before you converted it; meaning you can't upgrade the quality by converting to FLAC or ALAC. You can only downgrade by compressing. So if you rip a CD into ALAC, then that's the quality you're playing. If you turn an mp3 file into ALAC, that's all the quality you're getting: mp3.

Now, let's assume you have a higher than CD quality track in ALAC format. If you play it through wireless CarPlay or even airplay, it'll be downgraded to CD quality as that is the maximum it can transmit to the speakers. Hope this helps.

[superkrups20056]

Originally Posted by aesop_tortoise

Remember not to confuse the format with the quality.

You can make a FLAC or ALAC file out of any sound quality: from 320kbit/16-48khz (mp3) to 16bit/44khz (CD quality) to 24bit/96khz (the highest quality currently possible). It'll still have that same quality as whatever it was before you converted it; meaning you can't upgrade the quality by converting to FLAC or ALAC. You can only downgrade by compressing. So if you rip a CD into ALAC, then that's the quality you're playing. If you turn an mp3 file into ALAC, that's all the quality you're getting: mp3.

Now, let's assume you have a higher than CD quality track in ALAC format. If you play it through wireless CarPlay or even airplay, it'll be downgraded to CD quality as that is the maximum it can transmit to the speakers. Hope this helps.

Yep, all of my ALACS are ripped straight from CDs. This is a good reminder and makes sense. I assume that means CarPlay transmits maximum 16/44 by what you said via ALAC?

[aesop_tortoise]

Originally Posted by superkrups20056

Yep, all of my ALACS are ripped straight from CDs. This is a good reminder and makes sense. I assume that means CarPlay transmits maximum 16/44 by what you said via ALAC?

Yes correct, 16/44 is the maximum wireless CarPlay can transmit.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by davidoff86

All of my music is in Apple lossless - spent weeks ripping them. And on CarPlay, I can tel which songs are from those rips, in full quality, and tracks that are from Apple Music ( which is stuck at 256kb aac still ).

For Apple Music, make sure you go to Settings -> Music -> Cellular Data and turn ON "High Quality Streaming".
It is OFF by default.

[ramparts]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

For Apple Music, make sure you go to Settings -> Music -> Cellular Data and turn ON "High Quality Streaming".
It is OFF by default.

It's still capped at 256. Apple Music doesn't support higher nitrates from their store

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by davidoff86

It's still capped at 256. Apple Music doesn't support higher nitrates from their store

True, but without turning on that setting, the bitrate would be even less; less than 256.

[ramparts]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

True, but without turning on that setting, the bitrate would be even less; less than 256.

Yes, but I have it turned on anyway, and we're talking about lossless files loaded directly into the iPhone, so unsure on the comment

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by superkrups20056

I assume that means CarPlay transmits maximum 16/44 by what you said via ALAC?

Originally Posted by aesop_tortoise

Yes correct, 16/44 is the maximum wireless CarPlay can transmit.

Can anyone really hear any difference in quality between 16/44 and higher on ANY car audio system? (or even any mid-fi or hi-fi home system)?

I know people with $20,000 headphone setups that only claim to hear differences with, say, excellently mastered orchestral music (maybe) - seems dubious that *any* car audio DAC / Amp has the resolving capability (not to mention the drivers) for anyone, even those with the most sensitive ears, to hear higher than CD quality (which is 16/44 for mathematical reasons, the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem)

Just want to throw it out there that anything over CD quality is probably overkill.

[aesop_tortoise]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Can anyone really hear any difference in quality between 16/44 and higher on ANY car audio system? (or even any mid-fi or hi-fi home system)?

I know people with $20,000 headphone setups that only claim to hear differences with, say, excellently mastered orchestral music (maybe) - seems dubious that *any* car audio DAC / Amp has the resolving capability (not to mention the drivers) for anyone, even those with the most sensitive ears, to hear higher than CD quality ([COLOR="Blue"]which is 16/44 for mathematical reasons, the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem[/COLOR])

Just want to throw it out there that anything over CD quality is probably overkill.

Agreed. It's been debated whether anyone can truly differentiate between CD quality and higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-r...io?wprov=sfti1 (read under "controversy")

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by aesop_tortoise

Agreed. It's been debated whether anyone can truly differentiate between CD quality and higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-r...io?wprov=sfti1 (read under "controversy")

Totally, and when it comes to digital hi-fi audio, I'm a subjectivist! (I believe cables, transports, DACs, power cables, etc can all make a difference in the chain) I definitely don't think it's all 1s and 0s, but I do think anything higher than CD quality is a waste money and time. Much more important are things like the mastering (e.g., all pop music is compressed) as there is definitely recordings that sound awful of great gear vs low-fi stuff.

As for bluetooth vs wifi, yeah there no BT that will sound as good as wifi - and I can hear a definitely difference between BT-SBC and BT-AptX/AptXHD, but even so it's still using a compression algorithm vs wifi. AptX is pretty impressive though and clever in how and where it applies the compression. A great pair of BT headphones connecting via AptX sounds pretty dang good (e.g., Dali IO6)

[OSCORP]

oh man! I'm waiting for my Hiby R8 to arrive, all my flac files and Tidal just to have it slave to the usb-c in the car, i really hope this works!
Can you use the DAP with the BMW interface? so no need for carplay or android auto?

[sittingmongoose]

Originally Posted by aesop_tortoise

Yes correct, 16/44 is the maximum wireless CarPlay can transmit.

So to confirm, if most of my music on my iPhone is flac 44/16, I use wireless CarPlay, it will convert it to alac and I shouldn't lose any quality. Which would be the same as if I were to plug it in?

It's only for the handful of albums I have that are flac 96/24 that there will be a small audio drop which would still be present if I were to wire it.

[seamaster222]

Originally Posted by davidoff86

It's still capped at 256. Apple Music doesn't support higher nitrates from their store

Spotify does 320 I think. Would that go through Apple Car Play?

[ramparts]

Spotify have just announced a hifi lossless option, so this year is good for audiophiles!

Apple Music is now the odd one out, so expecting it to come there as well at WWdC in june

[superkrups20056]

Originally Posted by sittingmongoose

So to confirm, if most of my music on my iPhone is flac 44/16, I use wireless CarPlay, it will convert it to alac and I shouldn't lose any quality. Which would be the same as if I were to plug it in?

It's only for the handful of albums I have that are flac 96/24 that there will be a small audio drop which would still be present if I were to wire it.

This is correct based on what aesop_tortoise said above.

[jonify05]

Originally Posted by davidoff86

Spotify have just announced a hifi lossless option, so this year is good for audiophiles!

Apple Music is now the odd one out, so expecting it to come there as well at WWdC in june

Having listened to the new Apple Lossless offering, CarPlay with Apple Lossless is amazing. Previously, I thought Spotify did a better job with the dynamics … it was a cleaner, punchier bass, but with Apple Lossless, man it’s a whole different world.

Also I realize 16/44 isn’t truly lossless, but with Apple Lossless content (most of which is also just mastered at 16/44) the sound is incredible. I have the Bavsound amp in my F30, but that’s the only upgrade I’ve made.

[ramparts]

Originally Posted by jonify05

Having listened to the new Apple Lossless offering, CarPlay with Apple Lossless is amazing. Previously, I thought Spotify did a better job with the dynamics … it was a cleaner, punchier bass, but with Apple Lossless, man it’s a whole different world.

Also I realize 16/44 isn’t truly lossless, but with Apple Lossless content (most of which is also just mastered at 16/44) the sound is incredible. I have the Bavsound amp in my F30, but that’s the only upgrade I’ve made.

Actually apple music has hi res lossless now, up to 24 bit 192khz!

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by jonify05

Also I realize 16/44 isn’t truly lossless, but with Apple Lossless content (most of which is also just mastered at 16/44) the sound is incredible.

Originally Posted by davidoff86

Actually apple music has hi res lossless now, up to 24 bit 192khz!

Cross-posting from the B&W thread ... Sorry guys but probably not ... CarPlay is capped at 48kHz

---------------------------Thoughts on Wireless High-Def------------------------
* High-res on Android Auto
There's a 99.9% probability Android Auto is resampling all streams to 48Mhz, i.e., a Tidal Master is being resampled all the way down to 48kHz, and even a standard Tidal HiFi track (44.1kHz) is being upsampled even though the stream was 44.1kHz!. I'm pretty confident on Android Auto you're not getting high res. Why?

Well, first, core Android on any phone resamples all audio to 48kHz, and there's only one way around this: use an app that streams "bitperfect" to an external DAC. So, for example, if you use UAPP or Tidal (but no other apps I know of) it'll send the stream unadulterated to an external DAC ... but you gotta have an external DAC! So, for example, if you plugged in an OTG DAC like THX's Onyx to your android phone, Android would pop up message that said "Allow Tidal to access THX ONYX?". Once you accept, then Tidal will stream high-res bitperfect streams to your USB DAC.

Ok, so then what happens with Android Auto, be it wired or wireless? Well, not that. Your phone is connecting to your head unit's android implementation; i.e., THAT'S the connection stream, not your raw audio files, which means your head unit is using Android's kernal to deliver audio, which means it's resampled to 48kHz like all standard Android audio.

The thing is, 48 kHz is pretty damn good! Few normals have the equipment to resolve details higher than that, much less the ear training ...

So that's why a Tidal Master is going to sound better than MP3 quality - you're not getting "high-def", rather CD quality, which is where it is for a reason: it's the highest quality most people can effectively use. (google Nyquist and Red Book for why)


* High-Res on Apple Carplay
I'm fairly sure the same thing is going on here too ... here's why:

According to Apple, with iOS 14.6 or later you can listen to high-res lossless if: "To listen to songs at sample rates higher than 48 kHz, you need an external digital-to-analog converter." Same as Android! Coincidence? Probably not.

Further, Apple’s Lightning-to-3.5mm DAC adapter is MFi-certified and all MFI-certified devices have a capped data throughput at 24bit/48kHz, with anything above that being downsampled just like on Android ... so even if you have that external DAC, if you connect it to your iPhone/iPad with a MFI-certified adapter, you're still at 24bit/48kHz

And finally, the same is true with AirPlay: it's all capped at 48kHz (well, to be fair, Apple won't tell us, but we do know 24bit/96kHz and 24bit/192kHz streams aren't possible sooo... yeah, probably capped at 49kHz)

Even the MacOS it finicky with high-res; you can use apps like Roon or Audirvana to bypass MacOS's core audio layer, and, while Apple's Music app will technically play >48kHz files, you have to manually configure for it with the Audio MIDI setup app.


SUMMARY
-----------
From what I can see, neither Android nor Apple iOS handle high-res files easily, and both are config'd to up/downsample streams to 48kHz no matter how they come through UNLESS you have a DAC specifically connected & config'd ... and neither Apple Carplay nor Android Auto connect as external DACs, rather as mini-OSs that use the standard core audio outputs, i.e., 48kHz.

IMO, this is totally fine given 48kHz is better than CD quality which is about the best quality any of us can use anyway.

FINAL NOTE
--------------
As one of you maybe noted, many recordings (i.e., most all), especially pop music, are mastered "compressed" meaning the highs and lows are normalized. For example, if a vocalist suddenly sings louder IRL, that volume is pulled down on the master to match the background music volume. Jazz and orchestral (e.g., cymbals crashing) are particular victims of this. BTW, this means "high def" loses some of its value (i.e., most all of it) since everything was pre-mushed together in the master anyway. (not to mention just plain ole bad recordings!). That is, what high-def is adding are those small details like lip parting before singing, or the scratch of the guitar pick on the stings, or the echo of the bass off the side of piano ... all those tiny tiny details ...

In order to hear any differences one needs:
* A recording with those details,
* A DAC capable of resolving that detail (does a BMW DAC do that? probably not ...)
* An amp capable of delivering that detail (again, can a BMW amp do that? ehhhh ...)
* Speakers capable of presenting that detail
* A listening environment that doesn't suppress that detail (is a car interior a good audio listening room?)

And a listener listening for the detail who can identify it from experience ...

Personally I'm skeptical any car audio system can achieve this, but I'm a subjectivist so if you think it's better, then it is!

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

[...]And finally, the same is true with AirPlay: it's all capped at 48kHz (well, to be fair, Apple won't tell us, but we do know 24bit/96kHz and 24bit/192kHz streams aren't possible sooo... yeah, probably capped at 48kHz)

great info, but isn't there a difference between wireless Apple CarPlay in the vehicle and AirPlay/AirPlay2 for home networks? if so, then CarPlay caps at 16bit/44kHz while AirPlay2 caps at 16bit/44kHz or 24bit/48kHz (device dependent). the handicap that limits the streaming quality in our vehicles is the device the audio is streamed to (not from) as i'm pretty sure the vehicle's B&W system's firmware hasn't been updated to support higher than 16bit/44kHz. the following link shows supported brands including B&W, but they're likely home-based devices, not in-vehicle.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-t...y-2-explained/