[jad03060]

Unlike an ICE, an EV doesn't take a big hit during acceleration unless you hit it too hard and engage the ICE on the PHEV as long as you don't overshoot your speed, as slowing back down only recoups a portion of the energy used to get to speed.

An ICE will tend to be less efficient during acceleration, especially if it causes it to stay in lower gears longer.

Staying at a steady speed where you're not doing constant slight speed changes is not good for battery use, and drag does go up in a non-linear way, so increased speed will use more battery capacity to maintain that speed through losses in the drivetrain, and aerodynamic resistance.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Heavyd

My guess is that the battery capacity in the EU is bigger due to the emission regulations in the EU. Otherwise BMW can pay millions or billions fines to the EU.
Also the bigger capacity makes the car much more interesting tax wise. Don't know if fiscality, taxes and emission regulations are a big deal in the USA but they are in the EUSSR. ICE is game over from 2025 in Europe for new cars.

There is more to it than purely that. Obviously, you nor I have any real idea why the difference is there, but this isn’t it.

The G30 530e sells mostly in CA. When I got my MY2020 I was told over 50% of them are sold in CA. The reduced battery capacity prevented the car from meeting the CARB range requirements that CA changed to and in turn prevented the car from qualifying for some extra CA incentives that requires a minimum EV range of 35 miles. The MY2020 530e gets 27 miles of range on the UDDR scale CA uses. I’d imagine the extra battery capacity would likely have it eligible again…

So there is incentive for them to expand the capacity.

[Frenetic]

I haven't read through this thread, but there are technical reasons for what BMW is doing. It's not that uncommon for manufacturers to limit EV battery capacity.

1. The amount of battery discharge (relative to the overall capacity) is inversely related to battery life and there is a very strong correlation. In other words, the greater the discharge relative to the capacity, the shorter the overall battery life.

2. Another reason is that the discharge is optimal in a narrower range than the overall battery capacity. It usually ranges up to 80% of the overall actual battery capacity.

3. Finally, the discharge rate is more efficient (less stress and heat) based on the amount of any given current relative to the overall maximum capacity. In other words, the amount of overall heat and energy waste goes down at any given output relative to its overall battery size.

Why this is done for one market over the other is unknown. It could be that we expect longer battery lives and/or more efficiency, but in my opinion, BMW likely did this purposely for the reasons I mentioned above.

[javapro]

Originally Posted by Frenetic

I haven't read through this thread, but there are technical reasons for what BMW is doing. It's not that uncommon for manufacturers to limit EV battery capacity.

1. The amount of battery discharge (relative to the overall capacity) is inversely related to battery life and there is a very strong correlation. In other words, the greater the discharge relative to the capacity, the shorter the overall battery life.

2. Another reason is that the discharge is optimal in a narrower range than the overall battery capacity. It usually ranges up to 80% of the overall actual battery capacity.

3. Finally, the discharge rate is more efficient (less stress and heat) based on the amount of any given current relative to the overall maximum capacity. In other words, the amount of overall heat and energy waste goes down at any given output relative to its overall battery size.

Why this is done for one market over the other is unknown. It could be that we expect longer battery lives and/or more efficiency, but in my opinion, BMW likely did this purposely for the reasons I mentioned above.

The battery capacity is limited in every market! This is what all EV and PHEV manufactures do as they don’t want the batteries to discharge to 0% for the very reasons you stated. The question here is why in US the battery capacity is limited to 71% (17.1 of 24 kWh is usable) and 90% (21.6 of 24 kWh is usable) in the rest of the world! I think that the only reasonable explanation is higher battery warranty requirements in US.

[Frenetic]

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/ev-t...d-for-driving/

All EVs that use lithium-ion batteries are designed so that their full capacity can’t be used in driving – a few kWh are always left over as a buffer. Sometimes you’ll find this figure in spec sheets, which might (for example) quote capacity as “60 kWh (55 usable)” or some such. What is the reason for this?

There are three main reasons why you shouldn’t use all of the energy stored in the typical Li-ion EV battery. The first is that cycle life increases dramatically as depth of discharge (DoD) decreases. Nailing down the precise ratio of DoD to cycle life is difficult, as it depends on many factors, some beyond the control of the manufacturer. One illustrative example is from the Winston Battery 100 Ah LFP cell spec sheet, which claims a lifespan of 5,000 cycles at an 80% DoD or 7,000 cycles at a 70% DoD. That’s 90,000 more Ah delivered over the life of the cell for a mere 10 percentage point decrease in DoD!

The second reason is that a higher capacity pack artificially limited to a lower delivered capacity will be stressed at a lower C rate (a measure of the discharged rate relative to a battery’s maximum capacity) when delivering any given amount of current. For example, a 125 Ah battery limited to 80% DoD is equivalent to a 100 Ah battery drained to 100% DoD, but at, say, 250 A, the 125 Ah pack is operating at 2 C compared to 2.5 C for the 100 Ah pack. Since the internal resistance of any type of battery tends to go down as its capacity goes up, a larger-capacity pack will waste less energy as heat at the same discharge current.

The third reason is that restricting the DoD window to, say, 0-80% (or 10-90%), runs the pack in the flattest part of its discharge curve, and that can make for a better overall driving experience (and allows for an emergency “limp home” mode, as there is something left in the tank, so to speak).

This practice of restricting the DoD window should not be confused with EVs that allow for battery pack upgrades. For example, some of the 60 and 70 kWh versions of the Tesla Model S can be “upgraded” to the 75 kWh version using software to unlock the extra capacity. After a Model S is upgraded, it continues to safely employ the required Li-ion battery capacity buffers. However, it does raise an interesting question: Will the battery pack in a 60 kWh Model S that is never upgraded have a useful life that greatly exceeds the normal life expectancy?

Which is exactly what I mentioned above. I just think BMW felt battery life and efficiency was more important to our market versus the European market. Who knows.

[jad03060]

Some of that might be the fact that the common receptacle available in the USA is 120vac, and typically, a 15A circuit. The supplied EVSE can barely recharge after a long overnight...let it discharge further, and there's no way you'd get the vehicle recharged overnight unless you went to a level 2 or bought a larger level one device (and had someplace you could safely plug it in!).

Much of the rest of the world has 220-240vac available as their 'standard' receptacle, so they'd have a good chance of recharging their battery overnight.

Given the USA home power situation, the size of the on-board charging circuits, and the available battery capacity, they probably made a good decision.

Yes, I realize lots of people either have, or will be able to install a level 2 device, but there are still lots of people that don't have that option.

[SteveinArizona]

I find the warranty argument the most persuasive and...most damning. Apparently BMW is timing the death of its batteries by the length of the battery warranty (8 years in the US but longer in CARB states) vs a shorter warranty in Europe.

My 2018 530e is in the dealership shop right now. I reported that the energy I was able to put into the battery didn't match up with what I should have been able to put in even after accounting for a 20% holdback. The dealership ran a battery test and discovered a bad cell. They sent the test results to BMW corporate and I am waiting to hear back.

I based my complaint on the charging history tab in the BMW connected app. I should have about 7.5 KWH available but I was only getting ~5 or ~6 KWH instead of ~7 or ~8.

I will report back on how corporate reacted and what my warranty solution will be.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

I find the warranty argument the most persuasive and...most damning. Apparently BMW is timing the death of its batteries by the length of the battery warranty (8 years in the US but longer in CARB states) vs a shorter warranty in Europe.

My 2018 530e is in the dealership shop right now. I reported that the energy I was able to put into the battery didn't match up with what I should have been able to put in even after accounting for a 20% holdback. The dealership ran a battery test and discovered a bad cell. They sent the test results to BMW corporate and I am waiting to hear back.

I based my complaint on the charging history tab in the BMW connected app. I should have about 7.5 KWH available but I was only getting ~5 or ~6 KWH instead of ~7 or ~8.

I will report back on how corporate reacted and what my warranty solution will be.

Just heard back from my SA. They are going to replace the entire battery pack (all 6 cell packs). But they don't have them in stock so she said it will be a week or two.

[castcore99]

Originally Posted by jc.bmw

I don't remember where unfortunately, but I've heard/read that the US battery has an 8 year warranty vs 6 years in Europe.

So the computer limited lower useful capacity in the US allows BMW to guarantee the battery promised range for longer.

I did not validate the statements above, but it does make sense given that battery warranties typically state a certain level of capacity bellow which the battery is considered defective.

I just got my 2022 X5 45e, something strange

My battery charged up to 21.6 kWh

And it showed 47 miles electric range upon first charge

But after second charge, it went up to 21.6 again but now shows 32 miles electric range

Any thoughts?

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by castcore99

I just got my 2022 X5 45e, something strange

My battery charged up to 21.6 kWh

And it showed 47 miles electric range upon first charge

But after second charge, it went up to 21.6 again but now shows 32 miles electric range

Any thoughts?

the actual amount pumped in when charging will always be higher than the actual capacity recharged due to inefficiency losses such as heat. it's very common to see 20-22kWh pumped in when recharging from 0-100% in a US 45e. EU folks have reported 25-27kWh when recharging their 45e.

the electric range when fully charged is based on recent driving behavior but having just received your 45e, your small sample size is skewed. the more you drive, the more accurate it'll be, which is around 31 miles of electric range per full charge. this number will be different almost daily as you don't drive exactly the same way every day and other things like outside temperatures will affect your full range, too.

IOW, what you've been seeing is normal. you don't have 21.6kWh of usable capacity in your US 45e. additionally, you'll often see folks ask if their unusually high ranges are the result of a software change or even BMW opening up the usable capacity to us (wishful thinking).

[castcore99]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

the actual amount pumped in when charging will always be higher than the actual capacity recharged due to inefficiency losses such as heat. it's very common to see 20-22kWh pumped in when recharging from 0-100% in a US 45e. EU folks have reported 25-27kWh when recharging their 45e.

the electric range when fully charged is based on recent driving behavior but having just received your 45e, your small sample size is skewed. the more you drive, the more accurate it'll be, which is around 31 miles of electric range per full charge. this number will be different almost daily as you don't drive exactly the same way every day and other things like outside temperatures will affect your full range, too.

IOW, what you've been seeing is normal. you don't have 21.6kWh of usable capacity in your US 45e. additionally, you'll often see folks ask if their unusually high ranges are the result of a software change or even BMW opening up the usable capacity to us (wishful thinking).

Thanks for the great info.

Also the hold state of charge option. If I set it to 70 percent, does that mean the car won’t use any battery when battery is 70 percent regardless which drive mode I choose?

[jad03060]

Originally Posted by castcore99

Thanks for the great info.

Also the hold state of charge option. If I set it to 70 percent, does that mean the car won’t use any battery when battery is 70 percent regardless which drive mode I choose?

If you're using the supplied, level 1 EVSE, it's less efficient than you'd see with a level 2 box. The vehicle is changing that acv to about 480 vdc, and it's less efficient doing it when using a lower acv input.

The 45e will always use a little EV boost when accelerating even when you're in battery hold mode...it just won't switch into full EV mode once you're at the preset level. Depending on the terrain and your driving, you'd see the charge level rise and fall a little bit...up going down hill, and down during acceleration, at least until it got back to 70% in your example.

Unless you need some capacity to run around in EV mode, I've found 30% is enough to precondition if you can't recharge or want to keep the HVAC running at a stop if passengers don't want to get out, or it's a short stop. Bringing it back up to your battery hold level will take a lot more gas than just holding it.

[castcore99]

Originally Posted by jad03060

If you're using the supplied, level 1 EVSE, it's less efficient than you'd see with a level 2 box. The vehicle is changing that acv to about 480 vdc, and it's less efficient doing it when using a lower acv input.

The 45e will always use a little EV boost when accelerating even when you're in battery hold mode...it just won't switch into full EV mode once you're at the preset level. Depending on the terrain and your driving, you'd see the charge level rise and fall a little bit...up going down hill, and down during acceleration, at least until it got back to 70% in your example.

Unless you need some capacity to run around in EV mode, I've found 30% is enough to precondition if you can't recharge or want to keep the HVAC running at a stop if passengers don't want to get out, or it's a short stop. Bringing it back up to your battery hold level will take a lot more gas than just holding it.

What happens if I set hold at 100 percent but press EV mode?

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by castcore99

What happens if I set hold at 100 percent but press EV mode?

BATTERY HOLD is essentially its own 'mode'. The ICE will be running, and the generator will recharge the HV battery as you roll until it reaches the level you set at the cost of increased fuel use.

your BATTERY HOLD level doesn't mean anything while driving in Electric mode. Electric mode means you're driving the vehicle with the electric motor, so by definition you'll be depleting the charge level in the HV battery while in that mode.

[jad03060]

I've not tried it, but battery hold while in EV mode may turn the engine on if your charge is lower than the set value. If it did, it would probably switch to hybrid mode.

[nZtiZia]

i never paid attention to what level my battery was compared to what i set in BATTERY HOLD, but i do know the few times i did press BATTERY HOLD while in Electric mode (while learning the vehicle), the ICE turned on, and i believe it also switched to Hybrid mode.