[matowi]

The US market is broken. Your car prices are unbelievably low when compared to Europe…

[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by matowi

The US market is broken. Your car prices are unbelievably low when compared to Europe…

I’ll take it!! Guess that’s why we see less options? (I think)

[SwissBeemer]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

I’ll take it!! Guess that’s why we see less options? (I think)

Yes, I think so.

Keep in mind though that Europe usually offers higher discounts compared to the US. While the 50e starts at $107k in Germany right now you can get around 17-18% discount. Same car starts at $128k in Switzerland but 24% discount is not uncommon.

It still ends up being considerably more expensive of course but it's not as bad as it looks at first.

[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

Yes, I think so.

Keep in mind though that Europe usually offers higher discounts compared to the US. While the 50e starts at $107k in Germany right now you can get around 17-18% discount. Same car starts at $128k in Switzerland but 24% discount is not uncommon.

It still ends up being considerably more expensive of course but it's not as bad as it looks at first.

Crazy to be able to get that type of discount and the impact if you’re not aware. I guess that’s great for well informed buyers. The ignorant subsidize the informed .

[roamio]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

You can drive the 50e just like a mild hybrid, except for it having a ton more torgue, when you drive it in Sport Mode. The engine will then always be on with the added benefit over an M60i that it doesn't even have to downshift if you need instant power and the electric motor having an insane amount of instant torgue. Even at 25mph in 5th gear somewhere around 1,300rpm it still gets moving very nicely instantly without having to downshift.

I'm obiously biased but I honestly think the 50e is the better car in every way except for it not having a V8, if you're into that. (I really enjoy I6's as well though.) It can do it all: Be a pure EV, super efficient petrol car or sporty SUV with a ton of torgue down low and instant response. The M60i is hardly any faster both 0-62 and 62-124.

I have to disagree with thought that M60i is simply M badge and V8. We are all entitled to our opinions, right?

Not going to go over all differences just some that popped in my head:

1. Adaptive M Suspension Professional (handles less like a boat).
2. Integral Active Steering with rear-axle steering (great option).
3. M Sport Differential.
4. B&W.
5. CF trim.

Speed limit (I guess it doesn't matter here in US).

M60i is lighter.
M60i has almost 50/50 Weight Distribution.
Above will give you better handling.

I'm not saying that one car is better than another - just stating that they are not the same cars with different engine.

*** On a side note if I was in Europe I would've gotten 50e simply because of gas prices.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by roamio

I have to disagree with thought that M60i is simply M badge and V8. We are all entitled to our opinions, right?

Not going to go over all differences just some that popped in my head:

1. Adaptive M Suspension Professional (handles less like a boat).
2. Integral Active Steering with rear-axle steering (great option).
3. M Sport Differential.
4. B&W.
5. CF trim.

Speed limit (I guess it doesn't matter here in US).

M60i is lighter.
M60i has almost 50/50 Weight Distribution.
Above will give you better handling.

I'm not saying that one car is better than another - just stating that they are not the same cars with different engine.

*** On a side note if I was in Europe I would've gotten 50e simply because of gas prices.

The is guy is obviously pretty clueless and just doesn't like big bad V8 engines.
The M60i does come with a bit more than a 4.4L TTV8.

Additional standard equipment (X5 M60i xDrive, X6 M60i xDrive only)

M Sport Package
M Sport exhaust system
M Sport brakes with blue calipers
M Sport differential
Adaptive M suspension
Integral Active Steering
M steering wheel
Front ventilated seats
Multi-contour seats
Full LED lights
Harman Kardon surround sound system
Head-up display
Aerodynamic kit
M Sport Brakes with Blue Calipers
Roof Rails in High gloss Black
Shadowline Exterior Trim

[SwissBeemer]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

Crazy to be able to get that type of discount and the impact if you’re not aware. I guess that’s great for well informed buyers. The ignorant subsidize the informed .

I think you will get a base level of discount without even asking so I don't think that there's a lot of buyers that buy at MSRP. (Especially since in Germany 95%+ of new car buyers aren't paying cash but taking operative leasing which has the discount built into the rate.) It also depends a lot on the model, supply/demand, etc.

At the end of 2020 you could get 25% on an X3M in Germany while 6 months ago 15% was really stretching it. When I ordered 13-14% on an 50e was really good while right now 18% is not uncommon.

Originally Posted by roamio

I have to disagree with thought that M60i is simply M badge and V8. We are all entitled to our opinions, right?

Not going to go over all differences just some that popped in my head:

1. Adaptive M Suspension Professional (handles less like a boat).
2. Integral Active Steering with rear-axle steering (great option).
3. M Sport Differential.
4. B&W.
5. CF trim.

Speed limit (I guess it doesn't matter here in US).

M60i is lighter.
M60i has almost 50/50 Weight Distribution.
Above will give you better handling.

I'm not saying that one car is better than another - just stating that they are not the same cars with different engine.

*** On a side note if I was in Europe I would've gotten 50e simply because of gas prices.

Point taken regarding the M Suspension, although I would've opted for the air suspension anyways as this type of car is never going to handle any sort of sporty but that's just my opinion. I don't think that the M Sport Differential makes a real difference on xDrive cars either to be honest. You won't be losing grip or even driving it in such a spirited way that it could make any difference 99.99% of the time. I did value it on my rwd M-cars in the past, though. The other 3 options are available on the 50e in Europe.

The weight difference is 200lbs.
The same argument could be made about the center of mass in the 50e being lower due to the battery. I couldn't find the weight distribution but I'd wager it's not much different than the 50e.

I doubt that 200lbs in weight difference or 1% difference in weight distribution is going to be noticeable on a car like that. (From what I could find the X5M pre-LCI was almost 200lbs heavier than the 50i and the X5M LCI is as heavy as the M60i.)

Not saying that the M60i doesn't win in the "performance department" against a 50e but that the benefits are very small or mostly on paper and that in my opinion the other strengths of the 50e outweigh its shortcomings by a lot when compared to the M60i. There is a performance boost, sure. But it's tiny compared to say the X5M or the difference between 40i and 50e and 99% of the time using it day to day the instant torgue from the electric motor will give me more joy and usability than the .3s less to 100kph when using launch control. I will never be using launch control but what I will be doing a lot is needing instant torque when overtaking, entering a roundabout, etc.

Again I'm not trying to take anything away from other people enjoying their M60i, just stating my thoughts when comparing the 50e to the M60i and explaining my reasoning after some people seemingly felt offended by me saying that the 50e makes a lot more sense to me than the M60i. I never ruled out the M60i in principle myself when shopping for an SUV. It's just that I felt like it has an odd place in the lineup as the performance increase is very small while the price increase is substantial, even against the detuned B58 in the 50e, and it doesn't really offer any "exclusive" stuff either, at least in Europe and for stuff I would actually be using. This is probably also why BMW opted to not give the 40i mapping to the 50e (like the M760e has).

Originally Posted by cobramite

The is guy is obviously pretty clueless and just doesn't like big bad V8 engines.
The M60i does come with a bit more than a 4.4L TTV8.

Additional standard equipment (X5 M60i xDrive, X6 M60i xDrive only)

M Sport Package Available on the 50e in Europe
M Sport exhaust system Available on the 50e in Europe
M Sport brakes with blue calipers Available on the 50e in Europe
M Sport differential
Adaptive M suspension
Integral Active Steering Available on the 50e in Europe
M steering wheel Available on the 50e in Europe
Front ventilated seats Available on the 50e in Europe
Multi-contour seats Available on the 50e in Europe
Full LED lights Available on the 50e in Europe
Harman Kardon surround sound system Available on the 50e in Europe
Head-up display Available on the 50e in Europe
Aerodynamic kit Available on the 50e in Europe
M Sport Brakes with Blue Calipers Still available on the 50e in Europe
Roof Rails in High gloss Black Available on the 50e in Europe
Shadowline Exterior Trim Available on the 50e in Europe

Yikes

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

I think you will get a base level of discount without even asking so I don't think that there's a lot of buyers that buy at MSRP. (Especially since in Germany 95%+ of new car buyers aren't paying cash but taking operative leasing which has the discount built into the rate.) It also depends a lot on the model, supply/demand, etc.

At the end of 2020 you could get 25% on an X3M in Germany while 6 months ago 15% was really stretching it. When I ordered 13-14% on an 50e was really good while right now 18% is not uncommon.



Point taken regarding the M Suspension, although I would've opted for the air suspension anyways as this type of car is never going to handle any sort of sporty but that's just my opinion. I don't think that the M Sport Differential makes a real difference on xDrive cars either to be honest. You won't be losing grip or even driving it in such a spirited way that it could make any difference 99.99% of the time. I did value it on my rwd M-cars in the past, though. The other 3 options are available on the 50e in Europe.

The weight difference is 200lbs.
The same argument could be made about the center of mass in the 50e being lower due to the battery. I couldn't find the weight distribution but I'd wager it's not much different than the 50e.

I doubt that 200lbs in weight difference or 1% difference in weight distribution is going to be noticeable on a car like that.

Not saying that the M60i doesn't win in the "performance department" against a 50e but that the benefits are very small or mostly on paper and that in my opinion the other strengths of the 50e outweigh its shortcomings by a lot when compared to the M60i. There is a performance boost, sure. But it's tiny compared to say the X5M or the difference between 40i and 50e and 99% of the time using it day to day the instant torgue from the electric motor will give me more joy and usability than the .3s less to 100kph when using launch control. I will never be using launch control but what I will be doing a lot is needing instant torque when overtaking, entering a roundabout, etc.

Again I'm not trying to take anything away from other people enjoying their M60i, just stating my thoughts when comparing the 50e to the M60i. I never ruled out the M60i in principle myself when shopping for an SUV. It's just that I felt like it has an odd place in the lineup as the performance increase is very small while the price increase is substantial, even against the detuned B58 in the 50e. This is also why BMW opted to not give the 40i mapping to the 50e (like the M760e has).



Yikes

Do you think "available" and "standard" are the same thing? Yikes.
Not to sure what you are attempting to convince yourself of here.
You had your personal reasons to opt for the 50e, hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine.
All good.

[SwissBeemer]

Originally Posted by cobramite

Do you think "available" and "standard" are the same thing? Yikes.

No clue why that would matter as the "extras" are priced into the base price of the M60i so you are getting nothing extra other than saving the time to tick the box.

[roamio]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

I think you will get a base level of discount without even asking so I don't think that there's a lot of buyers that buy at MSRP. (Especially since in Germany 95%+ of new car buyers aren't paying cash but taking operative leasing which has the discount built into the rate.) It also depends a lot on the model, supply/demand, etc.

At the end of 2020 you could get 25% on an X3M in Germany while 6 months ago 15% was really stretching it. When I ordered 13-14% on an 50e was really good while right now 18% is not uncommon.



Point taken regarding the M Suspension, although I would've opted for the air suspension anyways as this type of car is never going to handle any sort of sporty but that's just my opinion. I don't think that the M Sport Differential makes a real difference on xDrive cars either to be honest. You won't be losing grip or even driving it in such a spirited way that it could make any difference 99.99% of the time. I did value it on my rwd M-cars in the past, though. The other 3 options are available on the 50e in Europe.

The weight difference is 200lbs.
The same argument could be made about the center of mass in the 50e being lower due to the battery. I couldn't find the weight distribution but I'd wager it's not much different than the 50e.

I doubt that 200lbs in weight difference or 1% difference in weight distribution is going to be noticeable on a car like that. (From what I could find the X5M pre-LCI was almost 200lbs heavier than the 50i and the X5M LCI is as heavy as the M60i.)

Not saying that the M60i doesn't win in the "performance department" against a 50e but that the benefits are very small or mostly on paper and that in my opinion the other strengths of the 50e outweigh its shortcomings by a lot when compared to the M60i. There is a performance boost, sure. But it's tiny compared to say the X5M or the difference between 40i and 50e and 99% of the time using it day to day the instant torgue from the electric motor will give me more joy and usability than the .3s less to 100kph when using launch control. I will never be using launch control but what I will be doing a lot is needing instant torque when overtaking, entering a roundabout, etc.

Again I'm not trying to take anything away from other people enjoying their M60i, just stating my thoughts when comparing the 50e to the M60i and explaining my reasoning after some people seemingly felt offended by me saying that the 50e makes a lot more sense to me than the M60i. I never ruled out the M60i in principle myself when shopping for an SUV. It's just that I felt like it has an odd place in the lineup as the performance increase is very small while the price increase is substantial, even against the detuned B58 in the 50e, and it doesn't really offer any "exclusive" stuff either, at least in Europe and for stuff I would actually be using. This is probably also why BMW opted to not give the 40i mapping to the 50e (like the M760e has).



Yikes

I have to agree that 50e is "almost" the same in practically everything. And that "almost" is being repeated over and over (handling, power, acceleration, availability of options and so on). The same thing is being said about X5M60i and X5M. Or M5 vs M550 vs 540i and so on. They are all "almost" the same.

Read mag reviews - everywhere they are saying why would you get M5 when there is M550 a or why get X5M when there is X5M60i that will give "almost" the same performance while saving 30+ thousand.

We differ in one thing - I say they are all different and you say that there is almost no difference. I leave it at that.


And to OP - sorry that this thread being jacked (and I'm being part of it). No more posts from me here unless it's related to X5 vs X3.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by roamio

I have to agree that 50e is "almost" the same in practically everything. And that "almost" is being repeated over and over (handling, power, acceleration, availability of options and so on). The same thing is being said about X5M60i and X5M. Or M5 vs M550 vs 540i and so on. They are all "almost" the same.

Read mag reviews - everywhere they are saying why would you get M5 when there is M550 a or why get X5M when there is X5M60i that will give "almost" the same performance while saving 30+ thousand.

We differ in one thing - I say they are all different and you say that there is almost no difference. I leave it at that.


And to OP - sorry that this thread being jacked (and I'm being part of it). No more posts from me here unless it's related to X5 vs X3.

That's a fair point but to take it one step further, I get more driving enjoyment from my $15k Miata all day long than I would from my DD family hauler getting to 60mph .2 seconds faster.

I always figured the horsepower wars would end when something like an X5 could out accelerate my old 911, but I was wrong. My 45e is way quicker than I need it to be, so sometimes I wonder how other owners are driving these cars considering most of them seem to be middle aged housewives.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by tooloud10

That's a fair point but to take it one step further, I get more driving enjoyment from my $15k Miata all day long than I would from my DD family hauler getting to 60mph .2 seconds faster.

I always figured the horsepower wars would end when something like an X5 could out accelerate my old 911, but I was wrong. My 45e is way quicker than I need it to be, so sometimes I wonder how other owners are driving these cars considering most of them seem to be middle aged housewives.

I am with you. For DD, I am not sure why I need to care 0-60 is in 4.5s or 5s, or even 6s. They are all plenty fast. Even att auto sport even, the fun part is always driving a slow car fast. Throughout the years, it is always the beginners taking high HP shiny new car to track, Corvette, X5M, E63 ... They were fast on the straight and maybe the first 2 laps. After 4-5 laps, they got fully embarrassed 200hp S2000 with a good driver in it. It usually takes a couple session to learn car is hardly ever the limitation factor.

[matowi]

[QUOTE=roamio;30724764]I have to disagree with thought that M60i is simply M badge and V8. We are all entitled to our opinions, right?

Not going to go over all differences just some that popped in my head:


Adaptive M Suspension Professional (handles less like a boat).
Integral Active Steering with rear-axle steering (great option).
M Sport Differential.
B&W.
CF trim.

The first three are my reason to choose the M60i. If they were available on other trims, I’d have ordered the 40i with those options

[SwissBeemer]

Originally Posted by roamio

I have to agree that 50e is "almost" the same in practically everything. And that "almost" is being repeated over and over (handling, power, acceleration, availability of options and so on). The same thing is being said about X5M60i and X5M. Or M5 vs M550 vs 540i and so on. They are all "almost" the same.

Sorry but the differences between M60i/M and 50e/M60i are substantially different.

The 50e and M60i are essentially the same car, just with a different engine. Yes, you can get a different suspension on it and an M-differential but other than that the base car is the same and you couldn't tell those two apart (except for the $50 exhaust tips and kidneys) while the M is a completely different car. It has a very distinct appearance that you can't get on any other car, a different suspension that you can't get either, different seats (illuminated M-logos), different iDrive with additional features, etc. There's a reason the M is a F95 while all the others are G05's. (On the German forum these regular models are usually called "AG Modell" since it's from the BMW AG while the "true M-cars" are from the M GmbH. Unfortunately this is rather rooted in history than present though, looking at you X///M.)

At some point BMW came up with the idea of naming their top non-M models "M Performance", similar to Audi's S-models, and making the M Package standard. A clever marketing move but the "Mxxi" models are still standard range-topping "AG Modelle" like the E39 540i or F10 550i in the past, just with a stronger engine and the M Package as standard. This is also how they are perceived on German car forums but it seems the marketing on those in the US is different so people perceive M-Stuff differently on the other side of the pond as they also seem to call their cars "M Sport" when it has the M package while in Europe a 40i is always a 40i, no matter if it has the M Package or not. (Also dealers would call them 40i and just list the M Package as one of the extras in the extras list.)

Originally Posted by tooloud10

That's a fair point but to take it one step further, I get more driving enjoyment from my $15k Miata all day long than I would from my DD family hauler getting to 60mph .2 seconds faster.

That's what I was trying to say. The few departments where the M60i might be marginally better (200lbs weight difference, 0.4s faster 0-60 with LC, M-differential, etc.) don't really matter for what the car will be used for in 99.9% of the cases. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there is 0 reason to buy an M60i just that for me the 50e is stronger in all departments that are important to me for a DD (comfort, economy, sudden and short accelerations, variability, etc.) AND it's cheaper. Spending the extra cash because you want a V8 ist perfectly fine. Just explaining my thoughts on why I think the 50e is the better package overall, not why there is 0 reason to buy an M60i.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

The 50e and M60i are essentially the same car, just with a different engine.

This is not correct, unless essentially means a lot more. The M50i/M60i has model-specific tuned kinematics and elasto-kinematics, suspension hardware and components to handle increased power output, eg: equipped with reinforced components compared to the standard chassis: a harder stabilizer, stiffer wishbones and harder rubber bearings.

[remo999]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

This is not correct, unless essentially means a lot more. The M50i/M60i has model-specific tuned kinematics and elasto-kinematics, suspension hardware and components to handle increased power output, eg: equipped with reinforced components compared to the standard chassis: a harder stabilizer, stiffer wishbones and harder rubber bearings.

Finally, somebody who knows what he is talking about after reading nonsense from some posters.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

This is not correct, unless essentially means a lot more. The M50i/M60i has model-specific tuned kinematics and elasto-kinematics, suspension hardware and components to handle increased power output, eg: equipped with reinforced components compared to the standard chassis: a harder stabilizer, stiffer wishbones and harder rubber bearings.

Spot on.
This guy you are responding to is apparently unable to comprehend or accept the fact the M60i is far more than just the M level S68 engine. It is a package with a sum total of upgraded hardware that makes it undeniably superior to the base models. That is OK with most objective observers who understand that a higher priced model will invariably come with more features, better this, better that, and in the case of the M60i superior performance also. Nearly half a second delta 0-60 is significant when in the 4 second range along with a 7-8 MPH trap advantage. Maybe the M60i is just as good as the pricier X5MC.
You see the same "mine is just as good" fist pounding from C8 Stingray owners who claim that their base model is 99% as capable a car as the Z06 and back up that claim with a 2.8 vs 2.6 second 0-60 difference. They paid much less and got a car that is just as potent as the other. Sure it is.
Pay less and get more does not work here. Tough nut for some.

[SwissBeemer]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

This is not correct, unless essentially means a lot more. The M50i/M60i has model-specific tuned kinematics and elasto-kinematics, suspension hardware and components to handle increased power output, eg: equipped with reinforced components compared to the standard chassis: a harder stabilizer, stiffer wishbones and harder rubber bearings.

Obviously every hardware is set up specifically to suit the car. You will have different suspension setups in the 40i, 50e, M60i & M. So to say that the setup between the M60i and 50e is different is just as valid as saying that the setup between the 40i and 30d is different. To claim that the difference between the 50e and the M60i is about as much as between the M60i and the M is beyond ridiculous.

There is a reason for the M being an F95, not G05. There's a set of AG cars and M cars with a huge distinction between them. I know people like to cope saying "Well my car is basically an M car." because they have the "M-Performance" model but the truth is those M-Performance models are closer to the base model than the actual M car.

[roamio]

So 50e is not only better than X5M60i but it's also better than X5M since 50e is cheaper, better gas milage, more comfortable and so on. Who cares about performance since X5M is daily driver SUV and Mazda Miata is better on a track day. Logic is all over place. I tried talking sense but I guess it doesn't matter and we can all laugh.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by roamio

So 50e is not only better than X5M60i but it's also better than X5M since 50e is cheaper, better gas milage, more comfortable and so on. Who cares about performance since X5M is daily driver SUV and Mazda Miata is better on a track day. Logic is all over place. I tried talking sense but I guess it doesn't matter and we can all laugh.

Per your definition of better, isn’t 40i even better?

[roamio]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

Per your definition of better, isn’t 40i even better?

You are reading my mind... I was thinking about editing my post.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by roamio

So 50e is not only better than X5M60i but it's also better than X5M since 50e is cheaper, better gas milage, more comfortable and so on. Who cares about performance since X5M is daily driver SUV and Mazda Miata is better on a track day. Logic is all over place. I tried talking sense but I guess it doesn't matter and we can all laugh.

That Miata is a "better" sports car than a 911 GTS, right?