[FCX5]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Amongst my colleages I notice the nerdy ones drive Teslas whereas the d-bags pull up in 911s, AMG GTs, Ferrari, M4, C63 AMG etc.

Teslas are objectively great. But there's a reason why they attract dweebs.

100%. I can attest to this. 😊

[KoenG]

don't know on which planet you're all living, but these drag races are totally irrelevant to compare cars on planet earth.

Once you get in this power range, you need an airplane landing strip to be able to get any difference. In real life, a tesla plaid S is not able to overtake a cayman without being a total idiot and putting lives at stake.

What a joke!

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by FCX5

I think you forgot the part where the Tesla Plaid will easily beat the M5 on pretty much any road surface. It is also faster than the Taycan Turbo S etc etc. the Rimac Nevera is also an EV, but in another league…just because you move your arms really fast, doesn't mean you are running as fast. On the Plaid run at the Nurburgring, just switching the tires to stickier ones or adding ceramic brakes, with the current software would outperform the M5 CS.

Your post contained several factual inaccuracies. Also isn't the M5 CS a car one can't even configure or order on BMW's site…from what I can tell. The regular M5 probably doesn't stand a chance in any scenario against a Plaid until it's battery runs out (assuming the M5 range with a full tank is more than the Plaid). The long range Model S might be a better comparison against the regular M5.

I think the point is that many enthusiasts don't care that the Plaid is faster because it also delivers a silent and sterile driving experience. The monster acceleration is a party trick that gets old quickly.

I think it's going to be a hard sell getting petrolheads to be interested in EV's beyond being just a mobility device for commuting and running errands. I predict the generation of motoring enthusiasts will be mostly purchasing from the back catalog of used gas burning vehicles rather than whatever the latest electric sporty car might be. Time will tell but my informal interactions with younger folk suggests that this will be the case. The Italian sports car makers know this and are already petitioning to postpone the European ban on internal combustion engines.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

I think the point is that many enthusiasts don't care that the Plaid is faster because it also delivers a silent and sterile driving experience. The monster acceleration is a party trick that gets old quickly.

I think it's going to be a hard sell getting petrolheads to be interested in EV's beyond being just a mobility device for commuting and running errands. I predict the generation of motoring enthusiasts will be mostly purchasing from the back catalog of used gas burning vehicles rather than whatever the latest electric sporty car might be. Time will tell but my informal interactions with younger folk suggests that this will be the case. The Italian sports car makers know this and are already petitioning to postpone the European ban on internal combustion engines.

Wait...You probably know that ICE are getting banned within a decade or so? So how is the buy-in of a small enthousiast crowd required to make the switch to EV really happen?

You probably also know that Ferrari was the laughing stock across the EU news and that EU didn't spend even a split second on considering their claim?

The US ignorance on what's happening is incredible. Most posts here give the impression that their personal preference will determine the future. Well, being 50 yrs old, living in EU, I lost this naivity about 35 years back.

Soon, we will all end up in a full BEV.

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Wait...You probably know that ICE are getting banned within a decade or so? So how is the buy-in of a small enthousiast crowd required to make the switch to EV really happen?

You probably also know that Ferrari was the laughing stock across the EU news and that EU didn't spend even a split second on considering their claim?

The US ignorance on what's happening is incredible. Most posts here give the impression that their personal preference will determine the future. Well, being 50 yrs old, living in EU, I lost this naivity about 45 years back.

Soon, we will all end up in a full BEV.

Are you saying ICE cars will be completely banned from operation on public roads?
I'm aware that certain cities are becoming EV-only within specific geographical limits, but otherwise, existing ICE cars will continue in operation well beyond 10 years. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If the legislation bans only the sale of new combustion engine vehicles, then my assertion (prediction) still holds. Enthusiasts in 2035 will largely be buying used, not new sports cars.

[LSM]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Wait...You probably know that ICE are getting banned within a decade or so? So how is the buy-in of a small enthousiast crowd required to make the switch to EV really happen?

You probably also know that Ferrari was the laughing stock across the EU news and that EU didn't spend even a split second on considering their claim?

The US ignorance on what's happening is incredible. Most posts here give the impression that their personal preference will determine the future. Well, being 50 yrs old, living in EU, I lost this naivity about 35 years back.

Soon, we will all end up in a full BEV.

Hopefully will be some combination. Porsche is developing eFuel that works in ICE

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020...els-23021.html

[TXGrey]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Wait...You probably know that ICE are getting banned within a decade or so? So how is the buy-in of a small enthousiast crowd required to make the switch to EV really happen?

You probably also know that Ferrari was the laughing stock across the EU news and that EU didn't spend even a split second on considering their claim?

The US ignorance on what's happening is incredible. Most posts here give the impression that their personal preference will determine the future. Well, being 50 yrs old, living in EU, I lost this naivity about 35 years back.

Soon, we will all end up in a full BEV.

Sorry to sound like the "typical American" here…. But over here in The States, I actually believe we will do our own thing…. Not whatever the EU does. Yes, there will be more adoption of EV to some sorts… but if you think the U.S. is going to just "outlaw" ICE cars all together, well, I'll take that bet…

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

Are you saying ICE cars will be completely banned from operation on public roads?
I'm aware that certain cities are becoming EV-only within specific geographical limits, but otherwise, existing ICE cars will continue in operation well beyond 10 years. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If the legislation bans only the sale of new combustion engine vehicles, then my asssertion still holds. Enthusiasts in 2035 will be largely buying used, not new cars.

Yes, beyond 2030 you'll still be able to buy pre-owned ICE cars... I hope. Today I read that NGO's are filing law suits against EU and local governments for nog banning ICE immediately. I kid you not, every day, we read these news items!

Latest survey today revealed that 80% of EU civilians are going to buy a full BEV within the two coming years since they're convinced that ICE becomes scrap in 2024-5 and will be prohibited! And to be honest, I don't dare to buy a new or pre-owned ICE with a CO² exhaust figure of more than 100gr/km (about a 1.2l engine with 100hp) since all above that will be taxed like it was a fine for ruining mother Earth! We already pay more than twice your fuel price, but it will increase faster and faster now.

Just saying, in the US, you're still protected from this near by tsunami. But I'am afraid when it hits you, it will be hard and fast! Don't dream you'll be driving M5's for decades to come. Won't happen, or it will be BEV M5's or Tesla S...

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by TheStanman

Unfortunately I don't think that's the case. New Model S interior design and materials are much nicer, but plenty of videos online showing serious quality issues. Doug Demuro's Plaid video is a good example. Significant paint issues, creaky door handles, etc.

My friend just took delivery of a Model 3 a month ago and has multiple fit and finish issues. Trim falling off, rattles, misaligned trim, etc. The worst part is how difficult it is to get the issues addressed.

yeah, again though, context matters: Are the new model S's better than the old ones? Was your friend's Model 3 made in Fremont or China?

No doubt Tesla has a long way to go on quality control, but Tesla's quality is improving - not fixed - but improving.

And if competitors aren't improving their battery tech and engineering to exceed Tesla's - including Tesla's ongoing innovation ramp - then eventually Tesla will have equal quality and best-in-class features.

BMW should be pretty nervous about trying to sell an i4 next to a made-in-Germany Model S/3/X/Y.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by TXGrey

Sorry to sound like the "typical American" here…. But over here in The States, I actually believe we will do our own thing…. Not whatever the EU does. Yes, there will be more adoption of EV to some sorts… but if you think the U.S. is going to just "outlaw" ICE cars all together, well, I'll take that bet…

I hope you're right! But here, it really has become totally weird and probably also "uncertain". I feel people are getting doubts about fossile fuels all together. It's a daily news item, but no answers.

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Yes, beyond 2030 you'll still be able to buy pre-owned ICE cars... I hope. Today I read that NGO's are filing law suits against EU and local governments for nog banning ICE immediately. I kid you not, every day, we read these news items!

Latest survey today revealed that 80% of EU civilians are going to buy a full BEV within the two coming years since they're convinced that ICE becomes scrap in 2024-5 and will be prohibited! And to be honest, I don't dare to buy a new or pre-owned ICE with a CO² exhaust figure of more than 100gr/km (about a 1.2l engine with 100hp) since all above that will be taxed like it was a fine for ruining mother Earth! We already pay more than twice your fuel price, but it will increase faster and faster now.

Just saying, in the US, you're still protected from this near by tsunami. But I'am afraid when it hits you, it will be hard and fast! Don't dream you'll be driving M5's for decades to come. Won't happen, or it will be BEV M5's or Tesla S...

I fully expect to be driving my M5 for decades. I'm taking the opposite approach and buying up some of the best of the last pure ICE offerings while I still can - M5 CS, Cayenne Turbo GT, 992 Turbo S etc that I intend to rotate as my daily drivers into the future. Heck, I'm even averse to hybrids and all the extra weight and complexity that comes along with them.

[HZX540e]

iPad on wheels aside since it's not a fair comparison. Is the X6M more on par with Porsche 4S not GTS?

[M3orbust]

I dont like but I can't stop technology I don't even try to compare ev straight line performance to ice anymore they can make them as fast as they want. Make a account on any performance car forum, exotic, luxury pony car i.e chevy ,dodge, Ford Battery power is where is going real car enthusiasts are not happy across the board,, the driving experience will be over in a short time. You can barely buy a manual anymore what does bmw have a few m models, as far as exotic goes only porsche is left even the american staples are dwindling down what's left camaro, vette, mustang , Stellanis is hinting that of 2024 the challenger will no longer be available in mt platform and it will be a hybrid if not full electric how the hell are you going to have a muscle car on battery power. I love driving manual yeah autos, dct are faster but it's much more engaging rowing thru the gears. I can see bmw , Mercedes, audi all going at least hybrid if not full electric in a decade or less. Your gas powered performance car,,, I hate to say it will be a novelty if it dosent have a 1000 hp it will be considered a snail compared to a modestly priced family ev 4 door sedan.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by TXGrey

Sorry to sound like the "typical American" here…. But over here in The States, I actually believe we will do our own thing…. Not whatever the EU does.

While that notion might be emotionally appealing, it's pretty wrong for a lot of very practical reasons:

(1.) The only strong, growing American auto company is ... Tesla
Just wait until GigaTexas is up and running, employing 1000s, supporting families, etc ... Texas gonna be Tesla country.

(2.) And either way, auto manufacturers are international
The US market is smaller than either China OR the EU individually and certainly smaller than them both combined. Auto companies aren't going to make one-off products for their smallest major market unless US consumers are willing to pay a large premium for them ... which will mean ICE will cost a lot more than an equivalent BEV. That might work for a Porsche 911, but not a Corolla.

(3.) Global supply chains
Speaking of niche products for small markets, as China and the EU stop buying ICE, ICE OEMs and suppliers will need to find new business (like supplying BEV parts) and ICE parts supply will start dry up - ICE costs will begin rising fast. Look at what happens to auto production (and prices!) when just microchips are in short supply!

(4.) Brain-Drain
Which employees want to work on that old tech dying product line? That means ICE vehicles will be designed & built by the C-team assuming any are built at all. Beyond hobby-jobby niche products like a 911 GTS, remotely affordable ICE cars ain't gonna be too appealing ...

(5.) Oh, right, ICE requires Gas Stations!
The gas-station-on-every-corner business model only works at scale; Target, Walmart, etc can't wait to get their hands on those convenience-store grocery stops and will provide free chargers to do it. And then there's Amazon with their grab-n-go just-walk-out payment tech and low cost delivery who'd love to buy up those well located properties. As gas station foot traffic drops many gas stations will struggle to stay afloat. Oh, and then there's gas prices themselves which'll start rising as volume falls because cracking, refining, and shipping fuel also requires scale to make sense. How many gasoline shortages will it take before the average american says fuck this, I'm getting a BEV? Let's face it: Max=1.

(6.) BONUS: ICE Repair, maintenance, & service costs
Yeah, so jiffy lube ... that'll get a bit harder to find and costs will move into the plumber-at-2am zone. Once you get the parts of course, which will be way harder to find and cost way more.


Will there still be ICE? Sure - there are still plenty of horses & carriages - but ICE will be more special use vehicles and/or rural; gas stations will be a lot farther away, and fuel will be a lot more expensive.

If there's one thing Americans fear more than anything else, it's being inconvenienced.

As ICE becomes more inconvenient Americans will definitely do their thing; which is do what's convenient.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by TXGrey

Sorry to sound like the "typical American" here…. But over here in The States, I actually believe we will do our own thing…. Not whatever the EU does. Yes, there will be more adoption of EV to some sorts… but if you think the U.S. is going to just "outlaw" ICE cars all together, well, I'll take that bet…

Just FYI though, if California/New York do indeed go ahead with their idiotic proposals to ban ICE then automakers will have to comply. A significant portion of Americans live in those states so they'll have no choice.

Stupid I know.

[thaalrasha]

I never understood this market. Why you'd buy a fast SUV ?... it's against it's very own physical nature to be fast and agile... You buy one for practicality because there are no wagons on the market, if it's a sports car you want then it's the wrong car I think.

[Ölheizer]

Originally Posted by thaalrasha

I never understood this market. Why you'd buy a fast SUV ?... it's against it's very own physical nature to be fast and agile... You buy one for practicality because there are no wagons on the market, if it's a sports car you want then it's the wrong car I think.

Absolute acc, these cars are so superfluous. Put these engines in a "normal" sedan or coupe and they would fly away..
SUVs are corpulent sumo-rings, will never understand why they are so popular.

[TheStanman]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

If the legislation bans only the sale of new combustion engine vehicles, then my assertion (prediction) still holds. Enthusiasts in 2035 will largely be buying used, not new sports cars.

Originally Posted by TXGrey

Sorry to sound like the "typical American" here…. But over here in The States, I actually believe we will do our own thing…. Not whatever the EU does. Yes, there will be more adoption of EV to some sorts… but if you think the U.S. is going to just "outlaw" ICE cars all together, well, I'll take that bet…

Originally Posted by GrussGott

(2.) And either way, auto manufacturers are international
The US market is smaller than either China OR the EU individually and certainly smaller than them both combined. Auto companies aren't going to make one-off products for their smallest major market unless US consumers are willing to pay a large premium for them ... which will mean ICE will cost a lot more than an equivalent BEV. That might work for a Porsche 911, but not a Corolla.

These are all very good and valid points, and all are true.

1) Bans are focused on new sales, which means ICE enthusiasts have decades to buy used cars once bans are in effect.

2) For new, OEMs are international which creates challenges for new ICE production even if some countries allow new ICE sales longer. I predict some OEMs will maintain ICE production lines but will put no investment into improving the product. E.g., BMW will continue to produce the last ICE M3 model but with no improvements for a long-time to sell in those markets.

It's unlikely countries would ban ICE vehicles in operation, as the waste created in scrapping would be terrible for the environment.

[Chicane_]

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/me...next-ten-years

[EstorilF30B58]

Should've included an Audi

[BMWF90M5]

Well even though my car came in last, I still think it hung pretty well!

[TXGrey]

Originally Posted by thaalrasha

I never understood this market. Why you'd buy a fast SUV ?... it's against it's very own physical nature to be fast and agile... You buy one for practicality because there are no wagons on the market, if it's a sports car you want then it's the wrong car I think.

Simple. Because you can. I own a sports car too (for the weekends)… but driving around to work and such everyday with 20 inch BBS wheels and a low profile tire with tons of construction and pot holes will yield nothing but frustration and heavy repair bills. So why not drive a sporty CUV that can carry some speed and handle quite well, but has bigger side-walls and has more room for the kids and the dog. Best of both worlds.

Now, having said all that…. I 100% agree that a line should be drawn somewhere. Hence the reason I’m in an X4 right now instead of new Macan GTS. The GTS is great, but at the end of the day, it’s still my “practical” car and I don’t need it to break records or beat every other SUV on “The Ring”. Cost vs what you get has to intersect at some point for those of us who don’t have money trees in the backyard.

And I can attest to all of this because I’ve owned the opposite… three 4Runners in a row. Basically an indestructible SUV… bulletproof. But I live in a concrete jungle… once I tried a more road-oriented/sportier SUV, I was completely hooked. Have zero plans to go back to a non-sporty suv so long as I have options not to. Cars like the X4 and Macan make everyday life waaaay more fun and enjoyable behind the wheel… And you don’t have to worry a ton about accidentally hitting a pot-hole or two.

P.S. - this isn’t really the case with 21 inch wheels on my M40i, but hey, they look good.