[NickyC]

Got a new rifle this week, along with some further updates to my Benelli M4. I'd always wanted a Springfield Armory M1 SOCOM, so finally plunked the money down. Those .308s are nice hah. As for the M4, I added a Benelli full length tube (just had a magazine extension on it before, never liked the look), along with an oversized bolt release and a nice Trijicon RMR red dot. I love this sight since it sits so low, and it's always on. As well, it auto adjusts brightness. At night, it automatically becomes dimmer. Really cool stuff! I also bought some "Double Round Ball" ammo from Herters for the M4. These shells are nuts, they're 2&3/4", packed with two round balls, both .650 in size. You should see the damage these do to a target along with the wadding at 10 yards, holy crap! I like them better than slugs!

[1MOREMOD]

How controlled are they at 50

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

How controlled are they at 50

In my experience, balls start losing shape and control in the mid 30s. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing a target with said ballage.

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by qba335i

Guys,

In need some recommendations for a nice concealed carry gun? With all the mess in Chicago it makes sense to get something. I have a SIG MK 25, but with the laser light attached it's a little bit too big.


Thanks.

Along with the other suggestions I really like my Sig P938 and my XD-s 45. Both are small and super easy to carry. Sig is nicer, 1911 type layout and super smooth and reliable. If you have some extra coin I would go that route over just about anything else. SAS version has rounded corners so guaranteed not to snag anything.

[1MOREMOD]

Yeah that's why slugs are cool, just getting ghost rings onto my 870 now.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

In my experience, balls start losing shape and control in the mid 30s. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing a target with said ballage.

I agree completely, the longest I've tested them out to was 15 yards at the indoor range I frequent. At 15 yards, the balls had already spread at minimum 4-5 inches from each other. Though, it's a bit difficult to tell because the wadding makes the same size hole in the target!

It's definitely an up close and personal defense shell, I really can't imagine myself using my shotgun outside of 10 yards anyway in a home defense scenario. I also purchased another new Herters shell, it comes with one .650 roundball and six 00 buckshot balls. I'm going to test that out next time I go to see what that does. Either way, both shells are just ridiculous stoppers up close. One hit with either and I don't see how the fight continues. I don't even know if somebody could run on adrenaline alone after getting hit by either of those, though I'm sure stranger things have happened.

[1MOREMOD]

Just regular 00 buck in federal flight control has good tight pattern at 25 yards

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by qba335i

Guys,

In need some recommendations for a nice concealed carry gun? With all the mess in Chicago it makes sense to get something. I have a SIG MK 25, but with the laser light attached it's a little bit too big.


Thanks.

My 3 pics for carry,
Beretta 84
Sig p229 in 40
Ruger lcp

[Dang3r]

Originally Posted by Axius

Go to Detroit, best bet will be around 9pm and later. If you stop at enough corners, there will be someone willing to sell you a gun. What you do with it after is up to you, most just throw it in the Detroit river.

No illegal stuff wanted, if its not possible to do it legal I have to refuse any other offers
Thx for the replies.

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by Dang3r

No illegal stuff wanted, if its not possible to do it legal I have to refuse any other offers
Thx for the replies.

Yeah - regardless of the hype it is not easy to just pick a gun up (from a vendor) in the US. You have to either have a license to purchase or license to carry to buy from any vendor (even at gun shows - no actual loopholes)

When you sell private party you don't *have* to do the same kinds of checks a dealer does. You could buy from a regular person without having to do any checks or whatnot. Having said that - you still wouldn't be legally owning it because you are not licensed to do so and *most* responsible owners will check to make sure you are legally allowed to own before selling.

If you were just wanting to go shooting find someone that will take you out or rent a gun at a range...

[Joekerr]

Yeah, I'd echo the above - if your desire was to just do some shooting, go to a range and rent a few guns.

It is relatively cheap, depending on which state you are in I suppose, for the fun you will have.

That's what I did before I went through the time consuming process of registering up here.

My experience has been you might have to pay to rent the first gun (I think - or maybe it was just ammo, but thought they charged for the gun as well), and then you can cycle through as many other different guns as you want, as long as you buy the ammo from them, the gun is free. Or maybe I just got nice dealers - I distinctly recall the only additional cost for trying more guns was the ammo. Got to try a lot of memorable guns that way. Though some ranges (particularly Vegas) will instead put a rental package together and you are confined to those guns in the package, you have to buy more packages or add on's to try more guns. I've always found it easier to just go to a mom and pop range, not super popular gun range, and they are more accommodating.

[Axius]

First you pay for the one hour range fee (~$20), some require temporary memberships (~15-$50), ammunition at the range (~.30c/rd 9mm) (.40c/rd 5.56 AR), gun rental (~30, but can use any firearm behind the counter, not including full autos I don't believe, you'll have to ask).

Obviously this isn't solid pricing at all ranges, but the range I went to in NC was a VERY nice facility, and was a bit pricey, but had a great selection of rentals, helpful staff, lounge area with a little deli, tons of inventory, etc. NC was also cool because you could rent silenced and fully automatic.

[Dalko43]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

This is largely false. Well, not so much as false, but rather just as true as saying 9mm has more stopping power as .40 cal.

Stopping power comes from your familiarity and proficiency in using your firearm. A well placed shot from a .38 will have more stopping power than a .45acp hitting a non-vital part of the body.

Today's bullet tech has moved the 9mm back to the forefront in regards to choosing a tactical and defense caliber. The 9mm platform offers too many advantages for the .40cal to overcome. 9MM and .40 ballistics are near identical. Penetration tests show it to be on par and in some comparisons better than .40cal. You can carry more rounds in 9mm over .40cal. 9mm is generally a more manageable round. More manageable rounds are easier to keep on target. Staying on target = more stopping power. Plus it's less expensive to shoot, less wear and tear on the firearm and abundantly available. More ammo choices, etc. etc.. etc...

There is a reason nearly all LE agencies are moving back to 9mm.

I know I risk turning this into a cartridge war, but there are a few things I felt should be addressed:

1) LE and military are switching up sidearm cartridges all the time, so I wouldn't worry too much about what the latest and greatest trend is. The fact is both cartridges (9mm and 40s&w) have a long and proven track record within military and police employment.

2) 9mm has seen a surge in terms of popularity, largely due to better loads and bullets. That said, each cartridge has distinct pro's and con's. 9mm is smaller (allows for more rounds per magazine), has lower recoil, is cheap and widely available and is a pretty fast round. Police and self-defense advocates are such fans of it for the same reason they like 5.56mm: it's lower recoil and high round count allows all types of shooters (even novices) to shoot accurately and put follow-up rounds on target. With that said, 40s&w throws heavier rounds, at similar velocities, which translates to higher energy and momentum on target. This in turn results in better penetration of barriers or obstacles and greater penetration and shock imparted on target (which is a better way of describing the terminal effects vs 'stopping power'). For a lot of shooters, 9mm makes perfect sense. For others, including law enforcement (many of whom still use 40s&w), military or certain concealed carry citizens (in states with magazine limits) the 40s&w can also make sense. For example, in my state of NY, getting a full-size 9mm like a Beretta m9 makes no sense whereas a sig p226 chambered in 40s&w makes more sense due to the magazine regulations.

3) Shot placement is important. If you're not hitting the target, or not hitting the right spot, the choice of cartridge is almost irrelevant. And pistol cartridges are all together inadequate for truly ending a fight; center-fire rifles and shotguns, by comparison, are much better for such purposes. Military members mostly view pistols as backup weapons only to be used as a last resort or until they can get to a more lethal weapon system. Most legal gun owners and police carry pistols because carrying around a shotgun or rifle on a daily basis is largely impractical. However, all things being equal some pistol cartridges hit harder than others. 40s&w was developed as a compromise of sorts between a lighter cartridge, like the 9mm, and a hot and heavy cartridge, like the 10mm (from which it was derived). And if you look at the kinetic energy for all 3, you'll see that the 40s&w falls roughly between the other 2.

Edit: Also, when did the forum change it's policy on firearm pictures and threads? I haven't been here in a while, but last time I was browsing the forum, the policy seemed to be that no firearm pictures or threads were allowed? Did that change?

[Axius]

Originally Posted by Dalko43

I know I risk turning this into a cartridge war, but there are a few things I felt should be addressed:

1) LE and military are switching up sidearm cartridges all the time, so I wouldn't worry too much about what the latest and greatest trend is. The fact is both cartridges (9mm and 40s&w) have a long and proven track record within military and police employment.

2) 9mm has seen a surge in terms of popularity, largely due to better loads and bullets. That said, each cartridge has distinct pro's and con's. 9mm is smaller (allows for more rounds per magazine), has lower recoil, is cheap and widely available and is a pretty fast round. Police and self-defense advocates are such fans of it for the same reason they like 5.56mm: it's lower recoil and high round count allows all types of shooters (even novices) to shoot accurately and put follow-up rounds on target. With that said, 40s&w throws heavier rounds, at similar velocities, which translates to higher energy and momentum on target. This in turn results in better penetration of barriers or obstacles and greater penetration and shock imparted on target (which is a better way of describing the terminal effects vs 'stopping power'). For a lot of shooters, 9mm makes perfect sense. For others, including law enforcement (many of whom still use 40s&w), military or certain concealed carry citizens (in states with magazine limits) the 40s&w can also make sense. For example, in my state of NY, getting a full-size 9mm like a Beretta m9 makes no sense whereas a sig p226 chambered in 40s&w makes more sense due to the magazine regulations.

3) Shot placement is important. If you're not hitting the target, or not hitting the right spot, the choice of cartridge is almost irrelevant. And pistol cartridges are all together inadequate for truly ending a fight; center-fire rifles and shotguns, by comparison, are much better for such purposes. Military members mostly view pistols as backup weapons only to be used as a last resort or until they can get to a more lethal weapon system. Most legal gun owners and police carry pistols because carrying around a shotgun or rifle on a daily basis is largely impractical. However, all things being equal some pistol cartridges hit harder than others. 40s&w was developed as a compromise of sorts between a lighter cartridge, like the 9mm, and a hot and heavy cartridge, like the 10mm (from which it was derived). And if you look at the kinetic energy for all 3, you'll see that the 40s&w falls roughly between the other 2.

Edit: Also, when did the forum change it's policy on firearm pictures and threads? I haven't been here in a while, but last time I was browsing the forum, the policy seemed to be that no firearm pictures or threads were allowed? Did that change?

People can banter about cartridges all day long, but in the end, unless you're shooting someone strung out on PCP, any hollow point is going to stop a threat. The difference is, like you said, where the shot is placed and how accurate / proficient you are with your firearm. Sure you can get into the science of things, but it doesn't change anything. If anything the spread on different styles of hollow points have a much greater deviation of damage than a 9mm vs 45.


Also, don't ask questions for things we do not need answers to. As long as we keep things civil and quiet, this thread alone is more informative than any of the slush that falls out of the politics/religion sections.

[Dalko43]

Originally Posted by Axius

People can banter about cartridges all day long, but in the end, unless you're shooting someone strung out on PCP, any hollow point is going to stop a threat.

PCP or adrenaline. There are plenty of recorded incidents where a person was mortally wounded by a lighter cartridge, but continued to fight and inflict damage on others before succumbing to their wounds. The 1986 Miami shootout comes to mind as a prominent example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout. So yes, shot placement matters, it matters a lot. But good shot placement doesn't totally negate the differences that do exist among the various rifle and pistol cartridges.

Originally Posted by Axius

Also, don't ask questions for things we do not need answers to. As long as we keep things civil and quiet, this thread alone is more informative than any of the slush that falls out of the politics/religion sections.

Trust me, I'm not complaining, just curious. I'm pleasantly surprised to see a thread like this continue to develop.

[Joekerr]

Sort of a general unspoken rule we've all agreed to here - that is to be courteous and don't stir the pot / ask about contentious issues so that we don't have any tempers flaring which would make the mods close the thread down.

We all appreciate this thread and the mods for allowing it to stay open...so we all behave ourselves here so that we can continue to have good things

I think that's generally what @Axius was getting at. I understand your post too and not criticizing you either, just expanding on what Ax said.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by Dalko43

I know I risk turning this into a cartridge war, but there are a few things I felt should be addressed:

1) LE and military are switching up sidearm cartridges all the time, so I wouldn't worry too much about what the latest and greatest trend is. The fact is both cartridges (9mm and 40s&w) have a long and proven track record within military and police employment.

2) 9mm has seen a surge in terms of popularity, largely due to better loads and bullets. That said, each cartridge has distinct pro's and con's. 9mm is smaller (allows for more rounds per magazine), has lower recoil, is cheap and widely available and is a pretty fast round. Police and self-defense advocates are such fans of it for the same reason they like 5.56mm: it's lower recoil and high round count allows all types of shooters (even novices) to shoot accurately and put follow-up rounds on target. With that said, 40s&w throws heavier rounds, at similar velocities, which translates to higher energy and momentum on target. This in turn results in better penetration of barriers or obstacles and greater penetration and shock imparted on target (which is a better way of describing the terminal effects vs 'stopping power'). For a lot of shooters, 9mm makes perfect sense. For others, including law enforcement (many of whom still use 40s&w), military or certain concealed carry citizens (in states with magazine limits) the 40s&w can also make sense. For example, in my state of NY, getting a full-size 9mm like a Beretta m9 makes no sense whereas a sig p226 chambered in 40s&w makes more sense due to the magazine regulations.

3) Shot placement is important. If you're not hitting the target, or not hitting the right spot, the choice of cartridge is almost irrelevant. And pistol cartridges are all together inadequate for truly ending a fight; center-fire rifles and shotguns, by comparison, are much better for such purposes. Military members mostly view pistols as backup weapons only to be used as a last resort or until they can get to a more lethal weapon system. Most legal gun owners and police carry pistols because carrying around a shotgun or rifle on a daily basis is largely impractical. However, all things being equal some pistol cartridges hit harder than others. 40s&w was developed as a compromise of sorts between a lighter cartridge, like the 9mm, and a hot and heavy cartridge, like the 10mm (from which it was derived). And if you look at the kinetic energy for all 3, you'll see that the 40s&w falls roughly between the other 2.

Edit: Also, when did the forum change it's policy on firearm pictures and threads? I haven't been here in a while, but last time I was browsing the forum, the policy seemed to be that no firearm pictures or threads were allowed? Did that change?

Generally speaking military is not supposed to use hollow points.

I know that statistically 'all hand gun cartridges are the same' and that 'it takes more then one shot' but I'm not sure I sign off on this.

You're going hiking in bear country, do you want a .380 or a 10mm, or even a 9mm vs 10mm (we won't bother going into revolver cartridges), they are NOT the same.

The advantage to the 9mm is certainly controllable recoil, and cost of practice ammo. Modern bullet technology has made 9mm relevant again. Being able to carry more is certainly an advantage.

For concealed carry 9mm is good because you can put an effective round in a very small package.

I live in CA, so mags over 10 round are no go. Most of the time I carry a 1911 with an extra mag or two (depending on my pants/pockets). Lately (since I got a car with heavily bolstered seats) I have been pocket carrying a Kahr PM9

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by Dalko43

Trust me, I'm not complaining, just curious. I'm pleasantly surprised to see a thread like this continue to develop.

My original screen name was banned for showing gun parts...

[Fundguy1]

Generally accepted is a .380 or larger hollow point is an effective man stopper. Get the largest you can control in the model gun you prefer is all. I carry .380, .40, and 45 acp in hollow point. Remember, even a .22 is better than chucking rocks.

[Axius]

Originally Posted by Dalko43

PCP or adrenaline. There are plenty of recorded incidents where a person was mortally wounded by a lighter cartridge, but continued to fight and inflict damage on others before succumbing to their wounds. The 1986 Miami shootout comes to mind as a prominent example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout. So yes, shot placement matters, it matters a lot. But good shot placement doesn't totally negate the differences that do exist among the various rifle and pistol cartridges.

Absolutely. I agree there are instances where adrenaline also kicks and can keep SOME people going depending on the situation. My comment was more geared towards the fact that there's so many debates on 9 vs 45 with trajectory, velocity, stopping power, etc., but in the grand scheme of things, either is sufficient for every day civies.

If you're distance shooting in a competition, then things of that nature would be relevant.

Originally Posted by Dalko43

Trust me, I'm not complaining, just curious. I'm pleasantly surprised to see a thread like this continue to develop.

Didn't take it that way, just kind of throwing it out there as the general consensus that we don't ask why, just enjoy in good faith and hope everyone can stay civilized and keep it open. Pew pew pew.

[PINeely]

The best round is the one that you can shoot effectively. Doesn't matter how big a bullet or how much "stopping power" it has if you can't hit your target. That goes for the weapon itself as well.

That said, I live in redneckville USA and once upon a time everyone carried 1911s. And we had the stories. "If you hit someone in the finger with a .45 it'll tear their whole hand off." Not only did it kill the bad guy, but it also went back in time and killed his dad and ripped his ancestors' souls out of heaven. And my favorite, "I won't carry anything that doesn't start with a 4."

Now everybody carries 9mms or .380s. Size considerations, capacity and modern bullet technology have made it a better choice for most people. I usually carry a 10mm just because I think it is a great round and I shoot it well, but when I carry one of my 9mm pistols I never feel underequipped. Nor do I when I carry my makarov. Hell I carry a .22mag revolver sometimes when I'm dressing light.

[Dalko43]

Originally Posted by PINeely

The best round is the one that you can shoot effectively. Doesn't matter how big a bullet or how much "stopping power" it has if you can't hit your target. That goes for the weapon itself as well.

That said, I live in redneckville USA and once upon a time everyone carried 1911s. And we had the stories. "If you hit someone in the finger with a .45 it'll tear their whole hand off." Not only did it kill the bad guy, but it also went back in time and killed his dad and ripped his ancestors' souls out of heaven. And my favorite, "I won't carry anything that doesn't start with a 4."

Now everybody carries 9mms or .380s. Size considerations, capacity and modern bullet technology have made it a better choice for most people. I usually carry a 10mm just because I think it is a great round and I shoot it well, but when I carry one of my 9mm pistols I never feel underequipped. Nor do I when I carry my makarov. Hell I carry a .22mag revolver sometimes when I'm dressing light.

Yeah, the .45 did, and still does, have its fair share of brand loyalists. But to be fair, so does pretty much every other flavor of firearm, cartridge, ammo type, scope, ect.....kind of like car enthusiasts. The point of contention that I was really focused on was the claim that 9mm has somehow surpassed and/or marginalized other comparable pistol cartridges. I think 9mm has a lot going for it, namely recoil and magazine capacity, but there are other cartridges that perform just as well, or arguably better, than 9mm, albeit with their own inherent disadvantages.