[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by RJC

Anyone know how DAP compares with Tesla's standard Autopilot? Any phantom braking?

I think the general consensus is that DAP doesn't come close to having the features that Autopilot does and is not designed to have it. DAP is an adaptive cruise control with steering and it does it very well. I use it as close to 100% of the time I'm driving as possible on all different road types (rural, urban, highways, etc.) and it performs wonderfully. As mentioned, the extended Traffic Jam Assist works well in traffic jams providing a total hands-free experience. DAP takes a lot of stress and aggravation out of driving.

[eelnoraa]

Take it as grain of salt

[Angiekeating67]

Originally Posted by DwainA

You make it sound like it's an all or nothing proposition - give the car full control or never use DAP. I learned to drive in Boston and NYC, so I'm good at racing to the next light, sliding into another lane, never making eye contact or slipping into that space the fool behind me was about to close up on purpose. Now I live in Texas where big ass trucks ride your bumper or accelerate like they think they're driving a Ferrari. I have DAP always on when I'm on a highway and most of the time on the great 70mph+ country roads, BUT I'm also adjusting the car ahead spacing or speed setting as well as accelerating or brake touching as needed. Still 80% of the time my 45e is doing the heavy lifting for me.
Remember, you bought a BMW, not a Tesla. Use the technology, but drive the damn car.

I couldn't have said it better!

[PhrogFixer01]

Traffic jam assist is probably the best part. I have had many cars with adaptive cruise and all the "active" assistance features and turn a good portion of them off before I leave the lot. I feel too many people have become over reliant on these features. I drive BMW's because I like the drive which part of that involves remaining cognizant of your surroundings. Every BMW I've ordered has been without DAP as I don't see the value even with a 70 mile daily commute mixed between town / city and I-95. If you see value in it, go for it. That's the luxury of ordering.

[taylormadettu]

I do not have this option, had big buyers remorse until I really thought about when i would use it. Due to the issues identified above, experience in other cars with it, and my driving habits (rarely do i drive on open HW's). im fine without the option (i did not build the car)

[PittsDriver]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

They can't in the system but rather give the build specs to the dealer to get on their waitlist for when an allocation is available.

So it's not technically an order but rather on the interested party list.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by PittsDriver

So it's not technically an order but rather on the interested party list.

Depends on how one looks at it I guess. For the majority of customers it is an order since they told the dealer what vehicle they want and how they want it configured. Only a small percentage of buyers are members of this forum or have the knowledge of how the behind the scene ordering system with waitlists, allocations, build tracking, etc.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by PittsDriver

So it's not technically an order but rather on the interested party list.

But this seems to be the way it works today for ordering a build. First build the car in BWMUSA, talk to dealer, so they will put you on the waiting list for the next allocation slot. At this point, the price maybe agree upon in a sense of MSRP +/- whatever you can get. Then when allocation comes, deal will call you and confirm spec one more time. Maybe add/subtract a few options if needed, then it is when the build is officially submitted to the factory. Dealer may ask for a deposite at this time too. Then the tracking starts.

[Eugr]

I would not have another car without at least Adaptive Cruise. I had it on my Mazda, I have Autopilot (with FSD option) in my Tesla and I have DAP in my X7.

I actually prefer BMW implementation to Tesla's.

Tesla has much stronger servos for eventual self-driving, so it can handle pretty sharp curves with ease, and the lane detection is pure magic - it can detect lanes even if I have trouble figuring that out.

However, when Tesla is in control, it will fight any steering input from you until you apply a noticeable amount of force, and then just let it go and disengage, resulting in a jerking moment. That makes avoiding, say, potholes, pretty annoying as it always results in a jerking movement and then you have to reengage the autopilot. And this is accompanied by an annoying chime for both disengagement and reengagement. Try doing that often enough when you have a sleeping baby in the car, and you won't use it ever again (or else).

In contrast, BMW acts more like an autopilot in the airplane. You can overpower the servos, but it won't disengage them, and it will continue tracking the center once you are done with maneuvering. Since the servos in BMW do not grab as strongly as Tesla's, it can't handle sharp curves as well, but on the other hand, it makes steering interventions very easy. BMW does tend to deviate from the center sometimes, but not much. Tesla is always dead center, unless you pass a big truck, then it will move a bit closer to the lane boundary.

I also like that BMW has capacitive sensor on the wheel and doesn't require you to apply force every once in a while.

Lane changes work as well as in Tesla, but in Tesla you have to have an FSD option for that. If you have a base Autopilot, you'll need to disengage and reengage every time you change lanes (with that chime!!!).

Tesla also tends to center itself when two lanes merge into one, while BMW drives more naturally.

Of course, Tesla have Navigate on Autopilot that will do all lane changes without any input from the driver, and you can even get self-driving Beta that would do city driving for you, but I used NOA just once, and don't use it anymore. Fully automatic lane changes are cool, but the timing of lane changes is always a bit off - it will often miss a good opportunity and then decide to change lanes when there is a car approaching. It does it safely, but I would do it differently. It also waits until too close to the exit.

I also experienced phantom braking twice, both times in "navigate on autopilot" mode.

Besides cruise functions, BMW DAP includes many other safety features not present in the base config.

I was driving on the freeway the other day, and a truck to the left of me started to drift into my lane. Just as I was going to react, the car gently steered away from the truck, while staying within my lane, and flashed "side collision prevention" on the dash. Very cool.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Eugr

I would not have another car without at least Adaptive Cruise. ....

....

I definitely agree. In my QX60, I had Nissan's older pro pilot+. I used it on road trip long drive a lot. I didn't think it was that useful until I returned the car and went to a car without such a feature.

In my experience, this type of semi autonomous feature has been quite good across brands. My father's 22 Forester eye signt is very good. Telsa AP needless to say, it is probably the most matured system. So when I order X5, I took DAP as well. As an family car, I think it will sure come in handle in the right situation.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by RJC

Anyone know how DAP compares with Tesla's standard Autopilot? Any phantom braking?

BMW's implementation of driving assistance is net superior to Tesla's implementation for the following reasons:
- BMW uses MobileEye for ADAS which is a tried and trued system
- BMW's implementation uses a combination of vision (camera), short and long range radars vs Tesla that is vision based only
- Telas autopilot is blind in inclement weather
- BMW has a driver attention system (eye tracking camera in the dashboard and capacitive touch sensor in the steering wheel)
- Tesla has no clue if you're paying attention to the road or touching (not moving) the steering wheel
- BMW allows you to take your hands off the steering wheel in traffic up to 40mph. With Tesla Autopilot, you never get the option to take your hands off the steering wheel.
- No phantom braking with the BMW or the propensity to hit emergency vehicles like with Teslas Autopilot
- Lastly, see below picture that shows the difference in display


PS. I would also not buy a car without DAPP. System works very well when used properly. You're not supposed to trust it fully.

Also, the post that someone made around it driving like a teenager is also not fully accurate. The car supports automatic adaptation of the distance it maintains according to the traffic situation or ambient conditions. It can take into account elements such as poor visibility.

It is not perfect, and not a replacement of an attentive driver, but it significantly reduces driver fatigue especially during high traffic hours or at night or during long commutes.

[Eugr]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

- BMW's implementation uses a combination of vision (camera), short and long range radars vs Tesla that is vision based only
- Telas autopilot is blind in inclement weather
- Tesla has no clue if you're paying attention to the road or touching (not moving) the steering wheel

This is not entirely correct:

1. Teslas released before 2020 use radar + vision (mine is 2019). They also use long-range ultrasonic sensors to detect obstacles on the sides and also rear-facing radars to watch for approaching traffic. They are moving towards vision only, at least for forward-facing applications as they were struggling with sensor fusion and also for cost saving measures.

2. My Tesla didn't have any issues keeping the distance and staying within the lane when it was raining hard at night. Sometimes even I couldn't see any lane markings!!! As much as I like DAP, I'm not sure it would be able to handle that well.

3. Yes and no. There is no capacitive sensor on the wheel, so you have to apply some force to tell the system that you are paying attention. There is also a cockpit camera just above the rearview mirror that can be used for driver monitoring. They haven't fully implemented the functionality yet, so you still have to move the steering wheel occasionally, but it now nags you if you happen to look at your phone for instance.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by Eugr

This is not entirely correct:

1. Teslas released before 2020 use radar + vision (mine is 2019). They also use long-range ultrasonic sensors to detect obstacles on the sides and also rear-facing radars to watch for approaching traffic. They are moving towards vision only, at least for forward-facing applications as they were struggling with sensor fusion and also for cost saving measures.

2. My Tesla didn't have any issues keeping the distance and staying within the lane when it was raining hard at night. Sometimes even I couldn't see any lane markings!!! As much as I like DAP, I'm not sure it would be able to handle that well.

3. Yes and no. There is no capacitive sensor on the wheel, so you have to apply some force to tell the system that you are paying attention. There is also a cockpit camera just above the rearview mirror that can be used for driver monitoring. They haven't fully implemented the functionality yet, so you still have to move the steering wheel occasionally, but it now nags you if you happen to look at your phone for instance.

I appreciate your numbering, no better way of staying organized in a post

1. Tesla Autopilot is vision only today. It only uses cameras. I don't disagree with you on previous generation cars but that's neither here or there, it devolved into vision only. Given Tesla uses vision only for autopilot today, and there is no redundancy to vision, you will never be able to take your hands off the steering wheel.

2. I've driven using DAPP during blizzard and torrential rain (California sometimes). The system works very well. If it's incapable of seeing road markings, it will not work at all, you won't be able to use it.

3. The cockpit camera that comes with newer Teslas is not a reliable driver attention camera, it's just a regular camera, it has no clue if you're actually looking at the road. The driver attention camera that comes with DAPP is a purpose built IR camera that knows your eyes are on the road, sunglasses on or not. You can wear polarized sunglasses and it will still see your eyes position.

I'm not saying DAPP is perfect, by no means, just that it is net superior and much safer frankly, compared to what's on a Tesla today.

Cheers!

[ScaldedDog]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

Also, the post that someone made around it driving like a teenager is also not fully accurate. The car supports automatic adaptation of the distance it maintains according to the traffic situation or ambient conditions. It can take into account elements such as poor visibility.

It is not perfect, and not a replacement of an attentive driver, but it significantly reduces driver fatigue especially during high traffic hours or at night or during long commutes.

Define "traffic situation or ambient conditions" the way DAP does. The devil is in those details. What, for example, does it know about the car in front of the car in front of you?

We ordered it, and I'll happily try it, but I suspect the statement that it "it significantly reduces driver fatigue especially during high traffic hours or at night or during long commutes" is true only as long as it is, then it isn't. Meaning that when nothing bad happens, which is 99.999% of the time, I'm sure it works great. It's the other times that concern me. The last six miles on the road to our house have so many deer strikes that the pavement looks like the guillotine platform during the French revolution. I'd love a tool that could help me see those things 200y in front of me, and 50y in either direction to the sides. I'm not optimistic.

BTW, the "drive like a teenager" statement is mine. It's not perfect - I assume the car doesn't drive while thinking about drinking beer and screwing it's girlfriend - but it's a pretty good analogy of how good these systems are at situational awareness.

None of this is to say that I, or any human driver, is perfect. We are not, and destruction is just a moment away for any of us. It's just that consumer grade AI systems are no substitute for experienced judgement. Not so much in the moment - I'm sure they can apply the brakes really quickly when appropriate - but before the moment. That sense that something isn't right, and I need to slow down, speed up, move over, get a room, whatever.

My $.02, as a 46 year, million mile driver,

Mark

[Eugr]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

I appreciate your numbering, no better way of staying organized in a post

1. Tesla Autopilot is vision only today. It only uses cameras. I don't disagree with you on previous generation cars but that's neither here or there, it devolved into vision only. Given Tesla uses vision only for autopilot today, and there is no redundancy to vision, you will never be able to take your hands off the steering wheel.

2. I've driven using DAPP during blizzard and torrential rain (California sometimes). The system works very well. If it's incapable of seeing road markings, it will not work at all, you won't be able to use it.

3. The cockpit camera that comes with newer Teslas is not a reliable driver attention camera, it's just a regular camera, it has no clue if you're actually looking at the road. The driver attention camera that comes with DAPP is a purpose built IR camera that knows your eyes are on the road, sunglasses on or not. You can wear polarized sunglasses and it will still see your eyes position.

I'm not saying DAPP is perfect, by no means, just that it is net superior and much safer frankly, compared to what's on a Tesla today.

Cheers!

1. Yes. Personally, I think it's a mistake, as radar offers some "superhuman" possibilities, like seeing a few cars ahead. I'd like to see a lidar in the mix too. But Tesla's argument is that if we, human drivers, can do all the driving with just two eyes, there is no reason why Tesla can't do the same with cameras. Their self-driving beta is pretty impressive too! Still a lot of work though until they let you take the hands off the wheel completely.

Vision-based distance measurement also offers some advantages over radar - for instance, it can detect stationary objects. Radar-based ACC would filter out any stationary object as noise. That's why there is a warning in BMW manual that the car won't brake for stopped traffic ahead. Well, in theory it will by activating emergency "city" braking because that one works off the camera (and maybe some sensor fusion, not sure), but it may be too late. Latest versions of Tesla autopilot can handle stopped traffic ahead without an accident, although it starts to brake too late and too aggressive to my liking, so I never rely on that.

2. Good to know. I've only got my X7 a week ago, so haven't been able to drive it on the highways much. But those few times I did, I used DAP and liked it a lot!

3. That's true. It was not purposely built as a driver attention camera and indeed the sunglasses don't let it detect if you are paying attention or not (at least as currently implemented). It can see in IR spectrum, but it doesn't have IR projectors like DAP camera.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by ScaldedDog

Define "traffic situation or ambient conditions" the way DAP does. The devil is in those details. What, for example, does it know about the car in front of the car in front of you?

I'll attach the screenshot from the manual that also shows how to enable "traffic conditions" based distance control. At minimum it will know if the vehicle in front is a motorcycle, large truck/semi, regular sedan.

Originally Posted by ScaldedDog

We ordered it, and I'll happily try it, but I suspect the statement that it "it significantly reduces driver fatigue especially during high traffic hours or at night or during long commutes" is true only as long as it is, then it isn't. Meaning that when nothing bad happens, which is 99.999% of the time, I'm sure it works great. It's the other times that concern me.

You may have to give it time at first, it will take a bit to realize when it is appropriate to use and when not. Poor road markings or conflicting road markings, probably not a good idea. Also, imagine just being more concerned about what's overall in front of you at night vs worry about staying in lane or braking if the car in front of you slows down etc. Or being in bumper to bumper traffic and you get to just relax your hands and feet and just watch the road. It takes less focus to operate the vehicle; that's what I mean when I say driver fatigue being reduced.

Originally Posted by ScaldedDog

The last six miles on the road to our house have so many deer strikes that the pavement looks like the guillotine platform during the French revolution. I'd love a tool that could help me see those things 200y in front of me, and 50y in either direction to the sides. I'm not optimistic.

Based on your last statement you'll do just fine with DAPP as long as you don't fully trust it. You can just turn it off in those 6 miles. I use DAPP about 60-70% of my driving. It can't be used on city streets, only highway/freeway driving.

I'll say over the years some people either avoided damage or experienced minimal damage due to the Front Collision Mitigation system. That's not always perfect either but the system can engage instantly without delay compared to driver reaction time if something like a deer jumps in front of you. What's likely going to help with the deer is the laser LED's with anti dazzle feature turned on.

Cheers Mark!

[ScaldedDog]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

I'll attach the screenshot from the manual that also shows how to enable "traffic conditions" based distance control. At minimum it will know if the vehicle in front is a motorcycle, large truck/semi, regular sedan.


You may have to give it time at first, it will take a bit to realize when it is appropriate to use and when not. Poor road markings or conflicting road markings, probably not a good idea. Also, imagine just being more concerned about what's overall in front of you at night vs worry about staying in lane or braking if the car in front of you slows down etc. Or being in bumper to bumper traffic and you get to just relax your hands and feet and just watch the road. It takes less focus to operate the vehicle; that's what I mean when I say driver fatigue being reduced.


Based on your last statement you'll do just fine with DAPP as long as you don't fully trust it. You can just turn it off in those 6 miles. I use DAPP about 60-70% of my driving. It can't be used on city streets, only highway/freeway driving.

I'll say over the years some people either avoided damage or experienced minimal damage due to the Front Collision Mitigation system. That's not always perfect either but the system can engage instantly without delay compared to driver reaction time if something like a deer jumps in front of you. What's likely going to help with the deer is the laser LED's with anti dazzle feature turned on.

Cheers Mark!

Great post. I'm actually very interested to try it, and am hoping the technologies are modular enough that I can use what I like and turn off the rest. Of course I'd know all that if I actually had a car, but that's another story, and another thread...



Mark

[kenniff]

I'm a big fan of the DAP package. Active cruise was something i first got 3 cars ago and i've deliberately specced it ever since. The BMW attempts at assisted driving have got better with each car i've had.

However, in my current car while using both the ACC and the assisted steering on my first long motorway drive I noticed every now and then it would sense some kind of impending doom and jerk the wheel to the side. This was disconcerting to say the least. On each ocassion I could see no reason for it.

Mostly I now turn off the assisted steering aspect because of this.

I do find the crawling in traffic situation much improved by the DAP tools.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by kenniff

I'm a big fan of the DAP package. Active cruise was something i first got 3 cars ago and i've deliberately specced it ever since. The BMW attempts at assisted driving have got better with each car i've had.

However, in my current car while using both the ACC and the assisted steering on my first long motorway drive I noticed every now and then it would sense some kind of impending doom and jerk the wheel to the side. This was disconcerting to say the least. On each ocassion I could see no reason for it.

Mostly I now turn off the assisted steering aspect because of this.

I do find the crawling in traffic situation much improved by the DAP tools.

Do you get a notification on your instrument cluster that reads "Active Side Collision Protection" ? When it jerks the wheel?

[Stoshu]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

I use DAPP about 60-70% of my driving. It can't be used on city streets, only highway/freeway driving.

I use it all the time on city/full access roads and it does recognizes and slow for stopped vehicles at stop lights/stop signs. Sometimes though it will brake late or give the “red” collision warning alert. You will get a sense after a time when you need to take control and brake. The areas I find it has the most issues are approaching a stopped vehicle at a light when your at higher speeds and when in slow traffic the car in front of you changes lanes slowly, sometimes the car will want to come to a complete stop (it thinks to avoid a collision).

[mikebbmw]

Just drove from Spartanburg to San Francisco. I can't imagine doing a drive like that without DAP. It isn't magic, there are a few things that confuse it (low sun dead ahead being one of them, my guess is because the contrast between the pavement and the stripes is too low, so does where the road is being repaved and it tries to follow the fresh pavement like it is a lane) but I was super-impressed by it. Creeping along in traffic is so much less stressful. Yes, my foot is always hovering over the brake, but there is much less concentration needed.

[Eugr]

Originally Posted by mikebbmw

Yes, my foot is always hovering over the brake, but there is much less concentration needed.

I actually found it more natural for me to lightly rest my right foot on the accelerator pedal (without pressing it). This way it's the same as normal driving, so all reactions are natural, and my foot doesn't get tired. It also saved me some embarrassment when my Tesla decided to phantom brake on me. The only time I hover over brake is when approaching slower moving traffic...