[marvin1992]

hey guys so I am a complete noob about tracking cars, but I have a question. From my understanding the best thing to do is to brake as late as possible and brake hard before the turn. But if you brake fully with the ABS activated, you would slow down faster, so why is it that it is recommended to press the brake, but only to the point before they lock up? wouldn't it be faster around a track to brake later utilizing the ABS and then corner?

[Cloud9blue]

You don't stop faster with ABS, as you are constantly breaking traction and regaining traction. Put into a simpler term, your tires can only generate max traction when it is just about losing traction. Therefore, you need modulate your brake pedal for max. Threshold braking performance.

Also constantly trigger abs generate incredible amount of stress on your brake and suspension components.

[The HACK]

Your understanding of braking technique for tracking is incorrect. I would highly recommend that if you're going to explore your car's capability on track, to do it with an organization that can provide proper training for you. Otherwise you'll soon find your car wadded into a wall.

First and foremost, you must understand that the primary point of braking on track is not to slow your car down, but to transition weight up front to increase grip into a corner. The slowing down is but a by-product of said weight transfer. So if you go into each braking zone intending to brake as late as possible and as hard as possible, you're not only throwing the balance of the vehicle out, thus eliminating available grip in the turn, you unnecessarily increase wear and tear, and you dramatically increase the potential for mistakes before, during, and after the turn.

As soon as you understand that braking at the right spot, and braking ONLY as little as you need is the right technique, and far more effective than braking later and braking harder, you will be able to go faster than ever before and safer than ever before.

Now, the primary reason you DON'T want to activate ABS on track isn't necessarily that it doesn't slow you down faster...It sort of doesn't. I posted a long dissertation on braking, ABS, and real braking (regressive braking) on here long time ago that I'm going to reference to (yes I like patting myself in the back. And yes I like the sound of my keyboard clacking away. But no I do not like repeating myself):

Regressive Braking Technique (with diagrams and stuff)

But the primary reason not to activate ABS on track is because it leaves behind uneven pad deposit, because it will rapidly release and apply the brake when the pads are at or near the maximum operating temperature, resulting in peaks and valleys of brake deposit (when the brake's applied it leaves behind a small amount of pad material, when it's released no pad material). Within 3-5 braking zones it will feel like your brake rotors are warped and the front end will vibrate and shudder to no end, and continued track application will make it much worse much quicker, and ultimately, significantly decrease your braking performance.

But no amount of typing here from me will help you. Get a competent in-car coach or instructor to show you.

[marvin1992]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

You don't stop faster with ABS, as you are constantly breaking traction and regaining traction. Put into a simpler term, your tires can only generate max traction when it is just about losing traction. Therefore, you need modulate your brake pedal for max. Threshold braking performance.

Also constantly trigger abs generate incredible amount of stress on your brake and suspension components.

ok then disregard my question and answer this question. I am not disagreeing with you, I am genuinely curious. if activating the ABS is not the fastest way to stop, then why in every single car video I have ever seen when they want to test the stopping power of a vehicle do they mash the brake pedal?

[fazman]

Originally Posted by marvin1992

ok then disregard my question and answer this question. I am not disagreeing with you, I am genuinely curious. if activating the ABS is not the fastest way to stop, then why in every single car video I have ever seen when they want to test the stopping power of a vehicle do they mash the brake pedal?

I thought ABS was so you have steering control under poor braking conditions? But also ABS extends stopping distance under sand/gravel?

I still agree that i get much better stopping distance when i press the brakes hard enough to not activate the ABS in dry conditions.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by marvin1992

ok then disregard my question and answer this question. I am not disagreeing with you, I am genuinely curious. if activating the ABS is not the fastest way to stop, then why in every single car video I have ever seen when they want to test the stopping power of a vehicle do they mash the brake pedal?

Read the link that hack posted...

Car magazines conducts brake tests based on real life scenarios. Average drivers don't have the skill to conduct perfect threshold braking in uncontrolled street surfaces.

[e90pilot]

Originally Posted by marvin1992

ok then disregard my question and answer this question. I am not disagreeing with you, I am genuinely curious. if activating the ABS is not the fastest way to stop, then why in every single car video I have ever seen when they want to test the stopping power of a vehicle do they mash the brake pedal?

ABS is the most consistent way to stop quickly. A modern ABS is actually pretty good and the average person won't be able to beat it. Unless you practice braking a lot, it will be very difficult in a panic situation brake properly. Even the best race car drivers in the world will lock the brakes when the stress level is high. So ABS is practically the fastest way to stop on the street.

On the track you have a controlled environment where you can practice. You know where the braking points are. So for the reasons stated above ABS is not the most effective way to stop. But at the same time, you shouldn't disable it either. If the a servo on one wheel clicks once, that's not going to put too much stress on the fluid pads or rotors and it will prevent you from flat spotting a tire which will ruin your day. Also, disabling the ABS will cause the car to set a fail safe brake balance which is usually too much rear bias.

[e90pilot]

I'm actually really glad Hack posted his little dissertation on braking. I hadn't read it before. Honestly that should really be a sticky. I know what I'll be practicing during my next event. I'm kinda interested in what the timing of this feels like. Is it one smooth motion where as soon as your reach max braking you immediately back off the pedal? Or do you hold max braking for a moment then back off the pedal?

[justpete]

Originally Posted by e90pilot

I'm actually really glad Hack posted his little dissertation on braking. I hadn't read it before. Honestly that should really be a sticky. I know what I'll be practicing during my next event. I'm kinda interested in what the timing of this feels like. Is it one smooth motion where as soon as your reach max braking you immediately back off the pedal? Or do you hold max braking for a moment then back off the pedal?

Takes practice but yes it feels like one fluid movement from the straight thru the corner. The brake pressure feels just like, or mostly like, the graph indicates and as you describe. It's trail braking and it should be smooth as should the steering input, progressively turning in and unwinding. You'll know it when you get it right. Someday I'm hoping to get it right more than one corner in a row.

Agreed this should be a sticky, invaluable advice.

[marvin1992]

Thank you for all the great info!

[TurboBimmer]

The hack stated it perfectly. For starters however, you should first work on this: braking as hard as possible (without triggering the abs) right at your brake point. The technique is just the opposite of what you do on the street, where you brake smooth first and increase pressure at the end of the process.

Once you've mastered this, you should progressively set your brake point later, and maintain the brake whilst turning into the corner. However, as your tires only have a limited amount of grip available, you can't require full brake force and corner grip at the same time. So you'll have to ease off the brake pedal at the end of your braking process as you start to turn in, whilst maintaining the load transfer at the front of the car. More weight on the front tires means more total grip for cornering.

You might want to google "traction circle" for more info.

This technique will require quite a lot of practice and is definitely an advanced technique. If you are ever attending a race, watch the brake lights of the cars. You'll notice that in some corners the pros keep braking until they're almost at the apex of the corner. At that point they'll maybe use 10% of the available grip for braking and 90% for cornering.