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      05-14-2015, 11:55 AM   #1
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Emulating the 1M sobriety success formula with the M2

Look at the past to be inspired for the future:
  • E82 1M (2011):
    3 body colors (AW, BSM, VO [launch color]), 1 interior color (black with orange accent stitching), technically upgraded N-series engine (N54), 340hp, 500Nm (450+50Nm overboost) torque, E9X M3 underpinnings (track/suspension/brakes), no CF roof, limited options, no BMW Individual (BMW Leipzig factory), manual transmission only, limited production (1 year) and availability.
  • F87 M2 base version (2015):
    4 body colors (AW, BSM, MG and LBB [launch color]), 1 interior color (black with blue accent stitching), technically upgraded N-series engine (N55), 365hp, 500Nm (465+35Nm overboost) torque, M4 underpinnings (track/suspension/brakes), no CF roof, likely limited options, no BMW Individual (BMW Leipzig factory), manual transmission available too (DCT optional, except if BMW changes its mind), likely limited availability (though so far no limited production, except if BMW changes its mind).
Major difference: most of the 1M specs indicated above, resulted from tight time and budget constraints. Maximizing possibilities with existing resources at hand, hence the so-called 'parts bin' scenario. No such impediments exist(ed) for the M2: BMW M got the 'luxury' of much more time and resources (including further technology progress) to develop and tweak a new proper ///M car, culminating into a 2015 compromise between engineers and so-called bean-counters (thereby also leaving enough room for a hardcore M2 which is currently in the works).

The 1M impromptu factor turned out to work wonders, ///Magic, if you like. Lack of time and money avoided analysis paralysis. Just think out of the box (or at least less conventional), rely on existing excellence and move on with the 'rebel'-ish "Pyrat" project to meet the swiftly approaching deadline.

Though substantial time and budget resources encompass the risk of weak sauce as final result (due to over-analysis and too many cooks spoiling the broth), it seems that BMW adopts the strategy to try emulating the 1M sobriety success formula by using several ingredients of it. Less is more (exclusive) - take it or leave it - get it ///My way. That ain't merely a benefit for marketing purposes, but it equally effectively reduces production costs/time and allows more price-point flexibility. As there is quite some competition for this type of car outside BMW, as well as inside BMW (M235i (M240i)/M3/M4), create a league of its own. This also helps to steer clear from the 'Buridan's Ass Paradox' that would keep customers on the fence (hesitation) or leave (disappointment).

For the record, Dackelone reported the following 1M info he learned during a BMW M Studio Tour at M HQ:
"BMW 1M
Then we got on a side topic about the last M project, the 1M Coupe. We learned some interesting things. The VO (Valencia Orange) color was a future color in the BMW pipeline. Dr Kay Segler liked it so much he insisted they make the 1M is that color. Then they knew they would have to offer a white and black color - bc every car looks good in those colors. He [BMW M guide] told us how they really wanted to offer different color stitching accents for each color - but they were tight on a budget plus they were really running out of time. So only one interior color was approved. Same went for some of the other "things" M wanted to do to the car. Like functional vents in the front fenders (the crease), they wanted to produce a carbon fiber roof, but they were running out of time. So in the end their hands were tied by time and budget. They told us how well the 1M sold given limited color choice and being that the car was only offered in a manual transmission. The car sold far better than BMW ever thought it would. This confirms that there will be an M2 in time."

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...80&postcount=1
Additional 1M trivia, potentially inspiring BMW M for determining its M2 strategy:
  • Former BMW M boss Dr. Kay Segler: "The 1M is basically a truncated M3 Competition Package with a manual".
    He added that the 1M does not need more power and that the production volume was kept low "to keep resale value as high as possible - creating an instant classic".
  • "Around the 1M development, the transmission was rated by the supplier up to 450Nm, and the engineering team then had to agree with supplier on tests that BMW M themselves would do to qualify up to 500Nm. It seems likely that transmission contributed to the reason why the peak torque is limited in duration, i.e. boost period only."
    http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=16
  • "[T]his is a limited production here in the States and that’s how we should treat it. We kept the volumes limited and keep the nostalgia up. This is one of those cars that will be a collector’s item in the future." - "We kept the colors pretty much limited. We did, you know, black, white and Valencia Orange. And pretty much that's how they've sold: a third, a third, a third."
    http://www.bimmerfile.com/2011/08/26...on/#more-14574 - http://www.bimmerfile.com/2011/08/21...les-for-bmw-m/
Some more 1M development trivia:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...30&postcount=4
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=841751
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      05-14-2015, 12:46 PM   #2
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Nice work thanks! Oddly wasn't into the M much at all back then, so missed out on the hype. Let's see how this M2 shapes up.
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      05-14-2015, 01:22 PM   #3
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Thanks for putting all of this together in one place! Good information and very valid comparison between the two cars.
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      05-14-2015, 02:02 PM   #4
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Nicely done.
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      05-14-2015, 02:51 PM   #5
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Awesome post and very informative

Seriously can't wait for this car!
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      05-14-2015, 03:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
[*]F87 M2 base version (2015):
.... likely limited availability....but.... no limited production
How can you predict "limited availability" and , at the same time, predict "no limited production?"
"No limited production," to me, means you can have one whenever you want one. "Limited availability" means you may or may not get one.
Obviously, you've thought this through and I'm not trying to be argumentative; but, how do you reconcile the two, apparently, conflicting notions?
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      05-14-2015, 04:04 PM   #7
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Okay, let's clear the misperception between low production and limited production. The 1M was a low production car. Limited production means a pre-determined number was established (no more, no less) a la E92 M3 GTS and E90 M3 CRT.
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      05-14-2015, 04:04 PM   #8
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When a concept finally is revealed it might break bimmerpost after so much hype
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      05-14-2015, 04:55 PM   #9
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Thanks Artemis for putting this thread together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adem1534 View Post
When a concept finally is revealed it might break bimmerpost after so much hype
Yeah... I can't believe I am still getting so many responses from my M2 four color thread. Every day(still!!) I keep getting people commenting on it.
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      05-14-2015, 05:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
How can you predict "limited availability" and, at the same time, predict "no limited production?"
"No limited production," to me, means you can have one whenever you want one. "Limited availability" means you may or may not get one.
Obviously, you've thought this through and I'm not trying to be argumentative; but, how do you reconcile the two, apparently, conflicting notions?
It relates to the difference between time and volume: production period (life cycle) on the one hand, and volumes made available (or more subjectively: how easy will it be for you to get hold of one ?) on the other hand.

If BMW adopts the strategy to deliberately keep the M2 supply lower than (expected) M2 demand, it may generate a 'hard-to-get' hype/buzz, further increasing the M2 demand and, more generally, the ///M brand reputation. It's a smart way to further hype a car that is already on the radar of many car enthusiasts for some time. Capitalizing on want for a quality product. It will be a sure-fire hit. We may reasonably assume that the competition is already getting a tad nervous about the M2 coming.

Earlier on, the following info was posted:
  • first gen F87 M2 start of production (SOP): November 2015
  • first gen F87 M2 end of production (EOP): October 2018
In the meantime, the EOP date has vanished in the post:
http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...99&postcount=1

A more recent Bimmerpost screenshot confirmed the SOP date, but showed June 2016 as EOP date:



We should not infer from that info that the F87 M2 will be discontinued after only 8 months (the 1M only got a 1 year product cycle). It's a 1 year table. Maybe the first gen F87 M2 might already get some tweaks in Summer 2016 (MY 2017) ? Furthermore, rumors exist about a hardcore M2 (GTS/CSL/CRT) due for release in 2016 (100th BMW anniversary) or later. Time will tell.

Furthermore, check also this remark by forum fellow M3 Adjuster:
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
If you haven't read the CAFE requirements and how they are calculated, then we really can't have a meaningful discussion. [...]
I bet you the M2 production may actually be "limited, but available" because of this as well...
While BMW wants to sell M2s, they really need to sell several very fuel efficient versions for every M... So they really aren't likely to allow production of 6k M2s a year if they aren't selling other 2 series models like hotcakes.
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      05-14-2015, 09:18 PM   #11
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M2 hardcore model, as a potential 100-year anniversary pastry, is something I would wait for.
Do we have anything "more" than pure speculation or rumors at this point?
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      05-14-2015, 10:18 PM   #12
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I think your post explains why a lot of people are kind of disappointed with the recent news about the M2's engine/color palette.

I remember after 1M production ended, Scott came in and started the hype train saying the next one wouldn't be limited from time constraints and would have a lightweight body and might have a high revving 4 cylinder.

Scott said
Quote:
M Division engineers are already working on the basics without time constraints or restrictions. 1M (E82) is showing what is possible in a small timeframe 1M (F22) will show what is possible once you do not have restrictions.
Fast-forward to now, and the car that BMW is making without time constraints is pretty much the same car as the one they made with all the time constraints (as far as we know): a truncated M3/4.

They said they "wanted to produce a carbon fiber roof, but they were running out of time," but with all this extra time for the M2 there is still no CF roof (according to Scott who saw the M2 privately in Geneva, but I suppose it is not set in stone 100%).

So I guess my main gripe is that BMW is making the M2 the same way they made the time-constrained 1M: limited colors, one interior option, slightly tuned x35i engine, M3 underpinnings. With the 1M it seemed kind of fun and quirky, like a junkyard dog. It was a small car with cartoonishly wide fenders and M3 parts they kind of cobbled together without much time. With the M2, it just kind of seems lazy and feels more like a bean-counter parts-bin car considering the amount of time they had. I'm not surprised that BMW went this route, but it is kind of disappointing. Obviously I'm going to reserve judgment until everything is unveiled, but I'm just kind of underwhelmed with what has been announced so far.

Last edited by bobloblaw; 05-14-2015 at 10:35 PM..
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      05-15-2015, 12:27 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobloblaw View Post
I think your post explains why a lot of people are kind of disappointed with the recent news about the M2's engine/color palette.

I remember after 1M production ended, Scott came in and started the hype train saying the next one wouldn't be limited from time constraints and would have a lightweight body and might have a high revving 4 cylinder.

Scott said

Fast-forward to now, and the car that BMW is making without time constraints is pretty much the same car as the one they made with all the time constraints (as far as we know): a truncated M3/4.

They said they "wanted to produce a carbon fiber roof, but they were running out of time," but with all this extra time for the M2 there is still no CF roof (according to Scott who saw the M2 privately in Geneva, but I suppose it is not set in stone 100%).

So I guess my main gripe is that BMW is making the M2 the same way they made the time-constrained 1M: limited colors, one interior option, slightly tuned x35i engine, M3 underpinnings. With the 1M it seemed kind of fun and quirky, like a junkyard dog. It was a small car with cartoonishly wide fenders and M3 parts they kind of cobbled together without much time. With the M2, it just kind of seems lazy and feels more like a bean-counter parts-bin car considering the amount of time they had. I'm not surprised that BMW went this route, but it is kind of disappointing. Obviously I'm going to reserve judgment until everything is unveiled, but I'm just kind of underwhelmed with what has been announced so far.
Yeah...not sure why it took BMW M this long to come up with this car...unless they also factor in a CSL
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      05-15-2015, 01:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobloblaw
I think your post explains why a lot of people are kind of disappointed with the recent news about the M2's engine/color palette.

I remember after 1M production ended, Scott came in and started the hype train saying the next one wouldn't be limited from time constraints and would have a lightweight body and might have a high revving 4 cylinder.

Scott said
Quote:
M Division engineers are already working on the basics without time constraints or restrictions. 1M (E82) is showing what is possible in a small timeframe 1M (F22) will show what is possible once you do not have restrictions.
Fast-forward to now, and the car that BMW is making without time constraints is pretty much the same car as the one they made with all the time constraints (as far as we know): a truncated M3/4.

They said they "wanted to produce a carbon fiber roof, but they were running out of time," but with all this extra time for the M2 there is still no CF roof (according to Scott who saw the M2 privately in Geneva, but I suppose it is not set in stone 100%).

So I guess my main gripe is that BMW is making the M2 the same way they made the time-constrained 1M: limited colors, one interior option, slightly tuned x35i engine, M3 underpinnings. With the 1M it seemed kind of fun and quirky, like a junkyard dog. It was a small car with cartoonishly wide fenders and M3 parts they kind of cobbled together without much time. With the M2, it just kind of seems lazy and feels more like a bean-counter parts-bin car considering the amount of time they had. I'm not surprised that BMW went this route, but it is kind of disappointing. Obviously I'm going to reserve judgment until everything is unveiled, but I'm just kind of underwhelmed with what has been announced so far.
This is something I was thinking about the other day, surely the M2 WILL be special and have a lot of new and bespoke items as BMW have advised they've had a much longer lead time into this one? Unless the time has been used to hone profit margin manufacturing processes or something disappointing for us....
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      05-15-2015, 05:04 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Car Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobloblaw
I think your post explains why a lot of people are kind of disappointed with the recent news about the M2's engine/color palette.

I remember after 1M production ended, Scott came in and started the hype train saying the next one wouldn't be limited from time constraints and would have a lightweight body and might have a high revving 4 cylinder.

Scott said
Quote:
M Division engineers are already working on the basics without time constraints or restrictions. 1M (E82) is showing what is possible in a small timeframe 1M (F22) will show what is possible once you do not have restrictions.
Fast-forward to now, and the car that BMW is making without time constraints is pretty much the same car as the one they made with all the time constraints (as far as we know): a truncated M3/4.

They said they "wanted to produce a carbon fiber roof, but they were running out of time," but with all this extra time for the M2 there is still no CF roof (according to Scott who saw the M2 privately in Geneva, but I suppose it is not set in stone 100%).

So I guess my main gripe is that BMW is making the M2 the same way they made the time-constrained 1M: limited colors, one interior option, slightly tuned x35i engine, M3 underpinnings. With the 1M it seemed kind of fun and quirky, like a junkyard dog. It was a small car with cartoonishly wide fenders and M3 parts they kind of cobbled together without much time. With the M2, it just kind of seems lazy and feels more like a bean-counter parts-bin car considering the amount of time they had. I'm not surprised that BMW went this route, but it is kind of disappointing. Obviously I'm going to reserve judgment until everything is unveiled, but I'm just kind of underwhelmed with what has been announced so far.
This is something I was thinking about the other day, surely the M2 WILL be special and have a lot of new and bespoke items as BMW have advised they've had a much longer lead time into this one? Unless the time has been used to hone profit margin manufacturing processes or something disappointing for us....
I think the M2 will be really good technically.....but hard to know whether it will be really special....

the relatively 'long' development is a bad thing, IMO. It means the fat hands of the corporate board members likely have their "sales in their eyes" hands all over this car....and some things have probably been made softer or less hardcore to sell cars. I hope this is not the case....and that it is a true successor to the super unique and unusual 1M. The weird thing is that the 1M was limited in these things due to lack of development time....so the M2 is being limited primarily to try to replicate the 1M formula then---as they've had enough time to come up with other ideas. Interesting...

oh and thanks for that write up, Artemis!
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      05-15-2015, 06:18 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
the relatively 'long' development is a bad thing, IMO. It means the fat hands of the corporate board members likely have their "sales in their eyes" hands all over this car....and some things have probably been made softer or less hardcore to sell cars.
Does it really, though? The e90 and f80 M3s all had long development times. If those parts are soft and created by the corporate board members to sell cars, then BMW is pretty much shoehorning those parts into the 1M and M2 (not saying that's what you think, just kind of playing devil's advocate).
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      05-15-2015, 08:13 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobloblaw
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
the relatively 'long' development is a bad thing, IMO. It means the fat hands of the corporate board members likely have their "sales in their eyes" hands all over this car....and some things have probably been made softer or less hardcore to sell cars.
Does it really, though? The e90 and f80 M3s all had long development times. If those parts are soft and created by the corporate board members to sell cars, then BMW is pretty much shoehorning those parts into the 1M and M2 (not saying that's what you think, just kind of playing devil's advocate).
true...and I am sure the M2 will overall be a great car, however my feeling is it will have less 'madness' than the 1M. Depending on your outlook that is a good or bad thing!

For me one of biggest appeals of the 1M is it's bonkers state of being...haha
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      05-15-2015, 08:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
true...and I am sure the M2 will overall be a great car, however my feeling is it will have less 'madness' than the 1M. Depending on your outlook that is a good or bad thing!

For me one of biggest appeals of the 1M is it's bonkers state of being...haha
I think it could go both ways. I'm leaning towards the M2 being a demon child to be honest. While the steering "feel" (there's that word again) won't be as good as the 1M, I think we might be pleasantly surprised with the suspension though.

We all know the 1M had E9x M3 components, while the M2 will have M3/4 components. The guys at M weren't joking around because they definitely made the car stiffer and the rear subframe being directly mounted makes a difference.

If you are looking at those parts alone, the M2 might be even more bonkers than the 1M. We'll see!
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      05-15-2015, 09:57 AM   #19
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It seems that some have difficulty in fathoming how massive 365hp and 500Nm (465+35Nm) is in a relatively compact car. And given BMW's conservative approach about figures, we all know that it will be more.

It's the total package that matters, what you can do with it and what feelings it evokes when you're driving it.

Allow yourself a few minutes to listen to Matt Farah and Chris Harris making some valid points. IMHO they kinda nailed it:
  • 03:17-06:00 (MF driving the 415hp Audi S4 of CH)
  • 06:08-07:29 (CH driving a 275hp Porsche Cayman, outpaced by the Audi S4)
  • 09:06-09:16 (MF driving a 275hp Porsche Cayman)
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      05-15-2015, 10:01 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
It's the total package that matters, what you can do with it and what feelings it evokes when you're driving it.
Amen. That's why 365 hp, 4 colors and one interior does not tell us much. We also know it will have a wider rear track using M4 parts and a DCT will be available. Price and weight will tingle the appetite, but until we now how this baby drives, we don't know much. My expectation is BMW will build a lot more M2's than 1M's.
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      05-15-2015, 10:53 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W///
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
true...and I am sure the M2 will overall be a great car, however my feeling is it will have less 'madness' than the 1M. Depending on your outlook that is a good or bad thing!

For me one of biggest appeals of the 1M is it's bonkers state of being...haha
I think it could go both ways. I'm leaning towards the M2 being a demon child to be honest. While the steering "feel" (there's that word again) won't be as good as the 1M, I think we might be pleasantly surprised with the suspension though.

We all know the 1M had E9x M3 components, while the M2 will have M3/4 components. The guys at M weren't joking around because they definitely made the car stiffer and the rear subframe being directly mounted makes a difference.

If you are looking at those parts alone, the M2 might be even more bonkers than the 1M. We'll see!
I think one of the biggest fundamental challenges here is that the 135 was a much more raw and involving start than the 235 will be. The 235 is a softer, less involving, and more grown up version of the 135----so in order to make the M2 'bonkers' they will really have to bring some of that old 1-series sketchiness back.

You are right in that the new M3 and M4 are superbly engineered, etc....but will putting all of that into make it be FUN? I think a car like this really has to hit that spot! Again I think the M2 will be a superb car overall...am not doubting that for a second. The specs are good and the inspiration behind it seems sound. I just hope they make it a little bit crazy
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      05-15-2015, 11:00 AM   #22
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2007 E92 328i  [10.00]
2007 328i  [10.00]
They will keep the availability difficult by artificially producing a low number of cars. It won't technically be limited production like the 1M, but I've been thinking for a while that this will be hard to get. And a lot of that will be driven by people like myself - who missed out on the 1M and will be determined to NOT let that happen again.

BMW wants you to buy an M3/4 too - hence, one of the factors playing into why there were not many 1Ms produced but you could get an E9X M3 quite easily. SCOTT has mentioned many times that folks that couldn't get a 1m the last time simply "moved up" to the E9X M3. How convenient. That's really the strategy in play here.
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Past rides: 2016 981 BGTS, 2020 MINI JCW, 2017 F80, 2015 981 CS, 2014 F22 235, 2011 E82 135, 2008 E82 135, 2007 E92 328, 2007 E92 328 (My lady drives an OG M2. So does my dad)
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