[larrysing]

Well, a report on my current repair situation with my 2011 335d M Sport, 74K miles.

So last week I was on the way back from Alabama to DFW, about 650 miles from home, when I got a message on my display: "Incorrect Exhaust Fluid detected. 200 miles to No Start" Imagine my horror, with two teenage girls in the car, driving home, realizing that we would not be able to stop the car for the next 10 hours.

I knew DEF had not been added, so I knew there was a sensor broken of some sort. We managed to drive the car until about 35 miles to No Start and filled up, meaning we had enough fuel to get home without needing to turn off the car. It was a very worrisome trip !!

I did buy an extended warranty with the used car 2 months ago, so I felt OK about getting the repair done in a costly manner. I am a member of AAA, so I got the car towed to the dealership for free.

Well, yesterday I heard from my SA that the NOx sensor and DEF-related issues are NOT covered by my warranty !!! ( I have started the process of cancelling that warranty and getting my money back, if it is not going to cover expensive repairs on this car. )

"replace both nox sensors, metering module and retest (top off
def and retest, Removing incorrect fluid, diesel exhaust fluid faults,
top off def and retest, Removing incorrect fluid, diesel exhaust
fluid faults)" - $2,071.29

There is also an oil leak near the turbos ($370) and a seeping leak in a lower radiator hose ($162), so this repair is going to cost me $2,700 with tax. I was so sick that I did not even eat lunch yesterday, as my appetite had gone away with the stress and worry of dealing with this issue.

As a 52-year old man, driving since age 16, I have never spent more than $1,400 on a single car repair. I have mostly driven Japanese cars before my two BMW 335ds I just bought. So spending almost double that on my first repair is like a traumatic experience.

I love the CRAP out of the torque and fun of my 335d, but I need to decide if these incredibly costly repairs (I am not a wealthy man) are worth it to me. Decisions. This just effin blows.

[Puerto Rican 335d]

soory to hear your plight to avoid this ISSUE again best get rid of everything at a tune of $2k approximately and TRUST ME you wont have any more issue follow the steps most of us have gone thru and you will say goodbye to your woes

[taibanl]

Was there in fact incorrect fluid as the service ticket is stating?

[335D Alpha Pappa]

Have your SA see if BMWNA will goodwill the DEF tank replacement. If it is the original DEF tank, this could be a design problem because last year the redesigned the DEF tank to make it more robust. Then you will have a 2 year warranty for the part.

get the abc delete. One time cost to upgrade the car and never have any of these worries again.

I plan on getting this done this summer. I bought a cpo car because I was worried about bad injectors. Turns out that emissions is the biggest piece of crap on this car. I have had about $8k-$10k worth of emission repair done to this car. Replaced SCR twice, NOx probes twice, metering device, and DEF tank was the latest part to be replaced.

As well as other warranty repairs such as AC belt twice, warped front rotors twice, front right wheel bearing, replaced the rear speed sensor, snapped the rear lower controller arm bolts. So far, out of pocket costs to me is $50.

With the emissions on this car, it is a matter of "when" it fails and not "if" it fails.

[larrysing]

Originally Posted by taibanl

Was there in fact incorrect fluid as the service ticket is stating?

I doubt it, because I had driven the car for about 3500 miles since ownership. To me, if the fluid was incorrect, it would have been reported before now. I think the NOx sensor is involved with whatever system is determining that the fluid is incorrect, and it failed and was reporting falsely.

[larrysing]

Originally Posted by 335D Alpha Pappa

Have your SA see if BMWNA will goodwill the DEF tank replacement. If it is the original DEF tank, this could be a design problem because last year the redesigned the DEF tank to make it more robust. Then you will have a 2 year warranty for the part. get the abc delete. One time cost to upgrade the car and never have any of these worries again. I plan on getting this done this summer. I bought a cpo car because I was worried about bad injectors. Turns out that emissions is the biggest piece of crap on this car. I have had about $8k-$10k worth of emission repair done to this car. Replaced SCR twice, NOx probes twice, metering device, and DEF tank was the latest part to be replaced. As well as other warranty repairs such as AC belt twice, warped front rotors twice, front right wheel bearing, replaced the rear speed sensor, snapped the rear lower controller arm bolts. So far, out of pocket costs to me is $50. With the emissions on this car, it is a matter of "when" it fails and not "if" it fails.

Were your emissions issues covered by CPO warranty, or is that $8-$10K you mention "out of pocket?"

[335D Alpha Pappa]

Originally Posted by larrysing

Were your emissions issues covered by CPO warranty, or is that $8-$10K you mention "out of pocket?"

all covered under the cpo warranty. So far to date, I have just paid the $50 co-pay once.

[taibanl]

Originally Posted by larrysing

I doubt it, because I had driven the car for about 3500 miles since ownership. To me, if the fluid was incorrect, it would have been reported before now. I think the NOx sensor is involved with whatever system is determining that the fluid is incorrect, and it failed and was reporting falsely.

Well i would push back on that because that seems to be their scapegoat the way the writeup reads

[gavronm]

Originally Posted by taibanl

Well i would push back on that because that seems to be their scapegoat the way the writeup reads

THIS. ^^^

Seems to me they are saying that because "you" put the wrong fluid in you are at fault and that is why it's not covered by the warranty.

You need to find your warranty papers and read them carefully and be ready to dispute their conclusion that it's not covered.

You are the only person in this deal that has your best interests in mind.

[Nadir Point]

I wouldn't be surprised if the warranty deny is based on assumption wrong DEF fluid really was at fault. That being the case, don't just push back - get a lawyer to go jump up and down on somebody's desk!

[Nadir Point]

Originally Posted by 335D Alpha Pappa

Get the abc delete. One time cost to upgrade the car and never have any of these worries again.

This is really the only viable option for maintaining these cars.

[larrysing]

Originally Posted by gavronm

THIS. ^^^
Seems to me they are saying that because "you" put the wrong fluid in you are at fault and that is why it's not covered by the warranty.
You need to find your warranty papers and read them carefully and be ready to dispute their conclusion that it's not covered.
You are the only person in this deal that has your best interests in mind.

No, I did personally call the warranty company and spoke to the technical folks there who "decide" what parts are covered. I have the "second from the best" warranty, and had I purchased the "best" one, this item would have been covered. I had them show me in the warranty paperwork, as I had a hard copy handy. It was indeed a non-covered item. I'm buying a new warranty which DOES cover this item.

Seriously considering the ABC delete, however. Doing my research on that now. I can't own a car that has frequent multi-thousand-dollar repairs. My budget is not built for that.

[Mark M]

Originally Posted by larrysing

No, I did personally call the warranty company and spoke to the technical folks there who "decide" what parts are covered. I have the "second from the best" warranty, and had I purchased the "best" one, this item would have been covered. I had them show me in the warranty paperwork, as I had a hard copy handy. It was indeed a non-covered item. I'm buying a new warranty which DOES cover this item.

Seriously considering the ABC delete, however. Doing my research on that now. I can't own a car that has frequent multi-thousand-dollar repairs. My budget is not built for that.

Keep in mind.....if you do go ABC delete.....it WILL smell like an old school diesel.

[larrysing]

Originally Posted by Mark M

Keep in mind.....if you do go ABC delete.....it WILL smell like an old school diesel.

Not a fan of that prospect at all. Apparently a lot of owners are dealing with it. I really don't like that smell, however.

[mefferso]

Originally Posted by Mark M

Keep in mind.....if you do go ABC delete.....it WILL smell like an old school diesel.

Oh the horror!!

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by larrysing

...

"replace both nox sensors, metering module and retest (top off
def and retest, Removing incorrect fluid, diesel exhaust fluid faults,
top off def and retest, Removing incorrect fluid, diesel exhaust
fluid faults)" - $2,071.29

There is also an oil leak near the turbos ($370) and a seeping leak in a lower radiator hose ($162), so this repair is going to cost me $2,700 with tax...

I just had both my NOx sensors replaced; $1800 after BMWCCA discount. Unfortunately the SES has come on again - I'm about ready to go down to see what it is. My guess is that it's the SCR catalyst (that's the NEXT thing they replace after the sensors.)

I've had the oil leak problem; about the same price.

70K is a bit early for NOx sensors and catalyst to fail, BTW. Poor consolation.

[RollingCoal]

There are other advantages to the ABC delete....1) improved mileage due to removing the restrictions, 2) the ability to use better oil for engine longevity. I'm sure there are several others that apply to a daily driver as well.

[Yozh]

Larrysing, your situation is strange. 200mi warning does indeed come one as a result of an incorrect fluid. This is designed to assure no one pumps water into the tanks. However, I also wonder if it is possible to get this warning due to an old urea in the tanks. I do not think that anyone ever reported this. For both NOx sensors to go off at the same time, it is very unlikely. I feel that BMW just throws parts instead of properly diagnosing the issues. First thing to do would be to flush the tank, purge the lines and clean off the nozzle. All easy to do. Fill with fresh urea and see if code disappears. You also need to remember, that as long as you do not shut off the car (or less than 3 min) you can restart or keep driving. I know this is very stressing, but still.

[Yozh]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

I just had both my NOx sensors replaced; $1800 after BMWCCA discount. Unfortunately the SES has come on again - I'm about ready to go down to see what it is. My guess is that it's the SCR catalyst (that's the NEXT thing they replace after the sensors.)

I've had the oil leak problem; about the same price.

70K is a bit early for NOx sensors and catalyst to fail, BTW. Poor consolation.

floydarogers, next time you decide to blow almost 2k on a set of another perfectly good NOx sensors, please give me a call and I can lend you mine that are sitting in a box. Will even drive them to Everett or somewhere. Really hope you kept your old ones at least.

Why do you guys start with the difficult and expensive, where the urea tank flush along with a nozzle rinse should be the first to try. I bet your SCR is fine as well. The only thing that can affect it is contamination, and unless you are blowing soot through it, you can only have crystallized urea in it. Water dissolves the urea, btw. Urea is funny, it has a 6 mos shelf life, so past that, expect to have issues, shorter in hotter climates.

Please clean your urea nozzle and see what changes...

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Yozh

floydarogers, next time you decide to blow almost 2k on a set of another perfectly good NOx sensors, please give me a call and I can lend you mine that are sitting in a box. Will even drive them to Everett or somewhere. Really hope you kept your old ones at least.

Why do you guys start with the difficult and expensive, where the urea tank flush along with a nozzle rinse should be the first to try. I bet your SCR is fine as well. The only thing that can affect it is contamination, and unless you are blowing soot through it, you can only have crystallized urea in it. Water dissolves the urea, btw. Urea is funny, it has a 6 mos shelf life, so past that, expect to have issues, shorter in hotter climates.

Please clean your urea nozzle and see what changes...

The fault analysis for 4D16/DeNOx Efficiency includes checking the DEF injector *BEFORE* moving to the NOx sensors. Why do you assume it wasn't checked?

There are other codes for DEF fluid being bad; as you know that is tested for by the DDE after every Regen of the DPF.

[335D Alpha Pappa]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

The fault analysis for 4D16/DeNOx Efficiency includes checking the DEF injector *BEFORE* moving to the NOx sensors. Why do you assume it wasn't checked?

There are other codes for DEF fluid being bad; as you know that is tested for by the DDE after every Regen of the DPF.

That was not the process a year ago when I had this DTC. It was:

1) Swap NOx probe positions
2) Replace NOx probes
3) Replace SCR unit

I had to wait 3 months for a new SCR due to QA failures, and when they replaced the SCR, the DTC was still there. The last thing they did was to replace the metering device, test the spray pattern and confirm it was pumping out so many mL of urea.

I drive enough miles so that the urea is never in the tank longer than 4 months.

[larrysing]

Originally Posted by Yozh

Larrysing, your situation is strange. 200mi warning does indeed come one as a result of an incorrect fluid. This is designed to assure no one pumps water into the tanks. However, I also wonder if it is possible to get this warning due to an old urea in the tanks. I do not think that anyone ever reported this. For both NOx sensors to go off at the same time, it is very unlikely. I feel that BMW just throws parts instead of properly diagnosing the issues. First thing to do would be to flush the tank, purge the lines and clean off the nozzle. All easy to do. Fill with fresh urea and see if code disappears. You also need to remember, that as long as you do not shut off the car (or less than 3 min) you can restart or keep driving. I know this is very stressing, but still.

They did the tank flush and refill first, as they were of the the belief that the urea was just EMPTY, when the error clearly stated "incorrect fluid."

You make a valid point about "both" NOx sensors going out at the same time. I'm going to call my SA and ask him about that today. Seems very odd...