Some help? Stage 3 issues

D5TMW · 10-26-2016, 02:06 AM

Hey guys,

My 335D was feeling underpowered so I took to to the shop to be dyno tested. It has a Hybrid turbo, stage 3 ecotune map, EGR / DPF delete, wagner IC.

Ecotune claim around 420bhp but on the rollers it made 370bhp which is significantly under.

We ran some data logging on the car and everything seemed completely fine. Fuel rail pressure was good, fuel temp was good, boost was a constant 2.5bar, inlet temp was low compared to others etc I can post up some detailed figures if needed. We then ran a smoke test on both hot and cold sides and that came out good too.

Any idea what I should try next? Im completely baffled now and really dont know were to go!

Thanks in advanced!

kydiesel35 · 10-26-2016, 06:16 AM

You can add more power by...

1) Optimize the tune (dyno or mail in)

2) Methanol injection (30whp, dial it in correctly)

I run the same type of turbo and like you, needed more. I will say those turbos can handle 420whp + and yield 41.2mpg on long trips!

lnxguy · 10-26-2016, 07:23 AM

Sounds like you need to talk to your tuner.

335dlci · 10-26-2016, 09:23 AM

Good ol' ecotune!!

BB_cuda · 10-26-2016, 05:51 PM

2.5 bar=36.xx psi. Isn't the whole point of doing a hybrid to increase the pressure? I recall a certain member who went for hybrids and blew up his forge pipe (inlet to IC) up from increased pressure. He switched over to a stronger pipe. I recall he was in the 40 something psi range. I could be mistaken.

EDIT: Tell Stan hi

mob17 · 10-27-2016, 02:27 PM

I'm sure the 420bhp claim is crank

Dazza335iC · 10-28-2016, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mob17

I'm sure the 420bhp claim is crank

This. OP, you're mixing up crank hp versus wheel hp. Most automatic 2WD cars will experience an 18-20% drivetrain loss (automatic AWD would be closer to 25%, manual trans 2WD closer to 15%). So 420whp would measure out to around 340-350whp, which means you're likely making more than 420 at the crank.

335dsleeper · 10-28-2016, 04:37 PM

^ hybrid turbo set up should be making more than 370bhp.

OP is listing brake hp figures, not whp. Most dynos in Europe use bhp. So, 370bhp is rather low for a hybrid car.

DWR · 10-28-2016, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazza335iC

This. OP, you're mixing up crank hp versus wheel hp. Most automatic 2WD cars will experience an 18-20% drivetrain loss (automatic AWD would be closer to 25%, manual trans 2WD closer to 15%). So 420whp would measure out to around 340-350whp, which means you're likely making more than 420 at the crank.

It is exactly over estimates of drivetrain losses that result in the inflated crank numbers. The ZF6HP28 is closer to 13%. Ecotune is advertising BHP, which is crank horsepower. But they are using a very reasonable loss factor to get there.

Dazza335iC · 10-31-2016, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWR

It is exactly over estimates of drivetrain losses that result in the inflated crank numbers. The ZF6HP28 is closer to 13%. Ecotune is advertising BHP, which is crank horsepower. But they are using a very reasonable loss factor to get there.

The ZF6HP28 may be 13%, but it's not the only component in the drivetrain. You've still got the driveshaft, differential, CV joints, wheel bearings, etc etc etc...

335dsleeper · 11-01-2016, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazza335iC

The ZF6HP28 may be 13%, but it's not the only component in the drivetrain. You've still got the driveshaft, differential, CV joints, wheel bearings, etc etc etc...

Except gear ratios negate those loses. Modern day autos are near as efficient as manual transmissions. People only reference large loses when consumed with BHP.

BPC posted a stock dyno of 236whp. BMW advertised BHP is 265hp. You do the math...

Additionally, drivetrain loss changes the more power you make. If a stock car loses 13% (34.45bhp loss) a highly modified car making 100-200bhp more isn't going to lose 50-60bhp.

MasterC17 · 11-01-2016, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

Except gear ratios negate those loses. Modern day autos are near as efficient as manual transmissions. People only reference large loses when consumed with BHP.

BPC posted a stock dyno of 236whp. BMW advertised BHP is 265hp. You do the math...

Additionally, drivetrain loss changes the more power you make. If a stock car loses 13% (34.45bhp loss) a highly modified car making 100-200bhp more isn't going to lose 50-60bhp.

Exactly right, modern day automatic transmissions (and cars) have quite low drivetrain loss as compared to 10 or 15 years ago. Nonetheless, 370bhp seems low for hybrid turbos.

D5TMW · 11-02-2016, 03:35 PM

370 is the power calculated at the crank. The whp was lower but I forget how much by. This whole time the car has been at the tuners and he's completely baffled as on paper it is working fine! His now come to the conclusion that the injectors are not giving enough fuel and an upgrade to later lci ones should get it up to power. Does this sound right? If this is the case then I'm not sure how ecotune can advertise at 420bhp when it could never produce that amount . N.b the tuner has a lot of experience in tuning diesels. The last 335d he mapped with the exact same turbos made 440bhp on his rolling road and therefore a good benchmark. The only difference is the latter being a lci?!

mob17 · 11-03-2016, 12:13 AM

Mines a pre lci and ecotune got it up to 422bhp. There must be something dropping that power

D5TMW · 11-03-2016, 01:10 AM

Was that tested on their dyno or a independent one? I've had mine tested at 2 different places now and both came back with the same results apart from the ecotune one who claimed 416ish bhp.

mob17 · 11-05-2016, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D5TMW

Was that tested on their dyno or a independent one? I've had mine tested at 2 different places now and both came back with the same results apart from the ecotune one who claimed 416ish bhp.

Mine was from Ecotune in 5th gear.

Are you saying they over estimate their figures?

mob17 · 11-11-2016, 02:36 PM

Just to add to this i did some runs at a drag strip earlier this year and trapped 112 or 113mph, which is about right for the power ecotune say. I think remapped only 335Ds are at 105-106mph.

And im sure trap speeds are better at showing power than a dyno. Take it to a drag strip.

335dsleeper · 11-12-2016, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mob17

Just to add to this i did some runs at a drag strip earlier this year and trapped 112 or 113mph, which is about right for the power ecotune say. I think remapped only 335Ds are at 105-106mph.

And im sure trap speeds are better at showing power than a dyno. Take it to a drag strip.

It'd be great if you could post a time slip in the 1/4 mile thread.

mob17 · 11-12-2016, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

Quote:

Originally Posted by mob17

Just to add to this i did some runs at a drag strip earlier this year and trapped 112 or 113mph, which is about right for the power ecotune say. I think remapped only 335Ds are at 105-106mph.

And im sure trap speeds are better at showing power than a dyno. Take it to a drag strip.

It'd be great if you could post a time slip in the 1/4 mile thread.

Let me find it, i definitely posted it on this forum somewhere. My ET was kinda rubbish but it was my first time

Edit: found it and posted up

DWR · 11-12-2016, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazza335iC

The ZF6HP28 may be 13%, but it's not the only component in the drivetrain. You've still got the driveshaft, differential, CV joints, wheel bearings, etc etc etc...

Sorry for my sloppy language. !3% is TOTAL loss.

10-26-2016, 02:06 AM	#1
D5TMW Private 7 Rep 57 Posts Drives: 335D Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: LONDON iTrader: (0)	Some help? Stage 3 issues Hey guys, My 335D was feeling underpowered so I took to to the shop to be dyno tested. It has a Hybrid turbo, stage 3 ecotune map, EGR / DPF delete, wagner IC. Ecotune claim around 420bhp but on the rollers it made 370bhp which is significantly under. We ran some data logging on the car and everything seemed completely fine. Fuel rail pressure was good, fuel temp was good, boost was a constant 2.5bar, inlet temp was low compared to others etc I can post up some detailed figures if needed. We then ran a smoke test on both hot and cold sides and that came out good too. Any idea what I should try next? Im completely baffled now and really dont know were to go! Thanks in advanced!
	Appreciate 0 Tweet Quote

10-26-2016, 06:16 AM	#2
kydiesel35 Lieutenant 166 Rep 460 Posts Drives: 2016 X5 35d Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: KY iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW 335d [0.00]	You can add more power by... 1) Optimize the tune (dyno or mail in) 2) Methanol injection (30whp, dial it in correctly) I run the same type of turbo and like you, needed more. I will say those turbos can handle 420whp + and yield 41.2mpg on long trips!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-26-2016, 07:23 AM	#3
lnxguy Lieutenant Colonel 356 Rep 1,722 Posts Drives: 2009 335D Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Barrie iTrader: (1)	Sounds like you need to talk to your tuner.
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10-26-2016, 09:23 AM	#4
335dlci Lieutenant Colonel 277 Rep 1,572 Posts Drives: 335d Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Socal iTrader: (0)	Good ol' ecotune!!
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10-26-2016, 05:51 PM	#5
BB_cuda Brigadier General 761 Rep 3,553 Posts Drives: 2011 335D Msport, 2013 X5D Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Clear Lake, Texas iTrader: (0)	2.5 bar=36.xx psi. Isn't the whole point of doing a hybrid to increase the pressure? I recall a certain member who went for hybrids and blew up his forge pipe (inlet to IC) up from increased pressure. He switched over to a stronger pipe. I recall he was in the 40 something psi range. I could be mistaken. EDIT: Tell Stan hi
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-27-2016, 02:27 PM	#6
mob17 Major General 400 Rep 5,623 Posts Drives: E92 335D Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: East Midlands, UK iTrader: (5)	I'm sure the 420bhp claim is crank
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10-28-2016, 04:37 PM	#8
335dsleeper Banned 389 Rep 1,623 Posts Drives: 09' 335d 10'35D Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Suffolk, va iTrader: (0)	^ hybrid turbo set up should be making more than 370bhp. OP is listing brake hp figures, not whp. Most dynos in Europe use bhp. So, 370bhp is rather low for a hybrid car.
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11-02-2016, 03:35 PM	#13
D5TMW Private 7 Rep 57 Posts Drives: 335D Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: LONDON iTrader: (0)	370 is the power calculated at the crank. The whp was lower but I forget how much by. This whole time the car has been at the tuners and he's completely baffled as on paper it is working fine! His now come to the conclusion that the injectors are not giving enough fuel and an upgrade to later lci ones should get it up to power. Does this sound right? If this is the case then I'm not sure how ecotune can advertise at 420bhp when it could never produce that amount . N.b the tuner has a lot of experience in tuning diesels. The last 335d he mapped with the exact same turbos made 440bhp on his rolling road and therefore a good benchmark. The only difference is the latter being a lci?!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

11-03-2016, 12:13 AM	#14
mob17 Major General 400 Rep 5,623 Posts Drives: E92 335D Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: East Midlands, UK iTrader: (5)	Mines a pre lci and ecotune got it up to 422bhp. There must be something dropping that power
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11-03-2016, 01:10 AM	#15
D5TMW Private 7 Rep 57 Posts Drives: 335D Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: LONDON iTrader: (0)	Was that tested on their dyno or a independent one? I've had mine tested at 2 different places now and both came back with the same results apart from the ecotune one who claimed 416ish bhp.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

11-11-2016, 02:36 PM	#17
mob17 Major General 400 Rep 5,623 Posts Drives: E92 335D Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: East Midlands, UK iTrader: (5)	Just to add to this i did some runs at a drag strip earlier this year and trapped 112 or 113mph, which is about right for the power ecotune say. I think remapped only 335Ds are at 105-106mph. And im sure trap speeds are better at showing power than a dyno. Take it to a drag strip.
	Appreciate 0 Quote