Thoughts on good speakers?

sageashton · 05-31-2008, 12:44 AM

Ready for the next evolution of my audio upgrades and wanted some feadback from anyone who cared to share it.

First, my system has steadily evolved over the last year. I have upgraded amps three times (JBL six channel amp, to JL a6450 to a PDX.5), I run an Audiocontrol DQX, replaced the stock subs with SWS-8's and am running Infinity speakers all around for mids and tweets.

The PDX is rated at 75w x 4 and 300 x 1. The actual power on the certificate is 102w x 4 and 369w x 1, which is bad A$$ in my opinion and works perfectly for the subs (rated 150 rms each). But the Infinity's run at
50w rms! Also, after a year with the Infinity's I have to say, honestly, I don't like them. They are just too bright, even after trying every which way to tune them. I can tune them down to be 'smooth' but not natural. At this point I have the power, why not run some better speakers?

So, which do you all have and what are your thoughts on them? And before people start slinging out that I go take a listen to them all, realize that I work ALOT and spend ALOT of time in my car. Going to several shops to listen to different brands is just not an option, thus your opinion really matters and I would like to here YOUR thoughts and descriptions on how the speakers sound. The more detailed the discription the better!

For the curious, I am looking for a nice 'warm' sound that is natural and easy to listen to and highs should be crisp but not overbearing or harsh. Sibilance is an instant turn off. But I thought it would be fun to have a thread about the different speakers that fit the e90 and their effect when installed in the e90.

Thanks!

katsu · 05-31-2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sageashton

For the curious, I am looking for a nice 'warm' sound that is natural and easy to listen to and highs should be crisp but not overbearing or harsh. Sibilance is an instant turn off. But I thought it would be fun to have a thread about the different speakers that fit the e90 and their effect when installed in the e90.

Thanks!

What size are you looking at? If you currently have Infinity mids/tweets, I'm guessing you aren't using the stock speaker locations, or mounting behind factory grill.

Personally I like something a little brighter, such as Boston Pro Series, but for warm/smooth/laid back, definitely look at a/d/s. Around same price as the Bostons, say $400-$600 for 6.5" components...

jehmarjeh · 05-31-2008, 05:26 AM

Ever looked into Focal???

I think focal makes the best of the best compo sets. Deffinatly for what your looking for.

http://www.focal-america.com

VP Electricity · 05-31-2008, 03:20 PM

I have always found infinity too bright.

I think the Morel Ovation 4 are the class of the field. If you like warm, that is the best there is.

The lower cost Morel Dotech are very good. I also like the Hertz HSK100 comp set very much in that price range.

The DLS RS4 are great on a budget.

I think the MBQ RUA210 are not as bright as the Infinity, but still too bright for me.

The Focal high-end 4" are bright for me but a lot of people like them. They make a lower-cost 4" component set. The build quality on the Focals is great, I just am not a fan of the tweeter sound.

As a rule, there are no US-brand 4" component sets that are worth a damn. Infinity, Boston, Polk, RF, Kicker, any of that.

You will find that RMS ratings do not affect sound quality at all.

VP Electricity · 05-31-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katsu

What size are you looking at? If you currently have Infinity mids/tweets, I'm guessing you aren't using the stock speaker locations, or mounting behind factory grill.

Personally I like something a little brighter, such as Boston Pro Series, but for warm/smooth/laid back, definitely look at a/d/s. Around same price as the Bostons, say $400-$600 for 6.5" components...

Unfortunately, ads is out of the car business at present, and hasn't made 4" comps in years and years...

sageashton · 05-31-2008, 07:30 PM

VP, thanks for the info!

Focal = Bright
Infinity - deafiningly bright (my thoughts)
Morel = Warm

It looks like Morels are the best for me.

Any other thoughts?

sageashton · 05-31-2008, 08:20 PM

What about Diamond Audio? Anybody have the hex series and what do they sound like?

VP Electricity · 06-01-2008, 03:17 AM

They use LPG tweeter in either silk or metal form - the metal ones osund like meatal ones, and the silk ones are still too bright. I know 4 people who have swapped the aluminum domes for silk and still were not happy.

zanzig · 06-01-2008, 09:02 AM

+1 for morel!!!

sageashton · 06-01-2008, 01:55 PM

Anyone use CDT speakers before?

silversurfer · 06-01-2008, 02:26 PM

I've always liked the Infinity. MB Quart sounds really good too.

1WickedE90 · 06-01-2008, 03:28 PM

I'm partial to MB Quart, particularly their Q-line - talk about "bright", though, these speakers are the epitome of bright!

When I start building the audio system in my 328i, I'll probably go with Morel. I've listened to a few installs in different cars and I fell in love with its "sound". Definitely not bright, the highs have more of a smooth & relaxed quality to them.

VP Electricity · 06-01-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sageashton

Anyone use CDT speakers before?

I have not for years, but they had a rep for using Vifa-made drivers with complex crossovers of their own design. Good build quality, respectable company AFAIK.

They have an approach and they believe in it - which I respect. I disagree with their multi-tweeter imaging approach, but hey, it's America

katsu · 06-01-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VP Electricity

Unfortunately, ads is out of the car business at present, and hasn't made 4" comps in years and years...

Really? I didn't know they aren't producing car speakers anymore.

I wasn't sure if the OP wanted to retain the 4" shallow mount woofer location...if he's using Infinity, I assumed he went with a larger size.

VP Electricity · 06-01-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katsu

Really? I didn't know they aren't producing car speakers anymore.

I wasn't sure if the OP wanted to retain the 4" shallow mount woofer location...if he's using Infinity, I assumed he went with a larger size.

At the moment a/d/s/ isn't making ANYTHING. Maybe Directed will let the brand go... now that they own Polk, they don't want to do anything with it.

Technic · 06-02-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sageashton

What about Diamond Audio? Anybody have the hex series and what do they sound like?

My GTI front doors have a mix 'n match of Diamond Audio HEX in 4", a pair of SWS-8, and all driven thru a CDT Audio HD-30 3-way crossover.

Personally, I'm very impressed with sound quality and front stage that I get from this combo. The HEX takes care of the mid/highs just right, not overwhelmed by the SWS-8 at all. The 4" mid is very accurate with the voices and some mid bass, and I say some because I don't like to push any 4" speaker to reproduce bass that can be taken care of with a speaker twice bigger in size.

The tweeter that I choose was the silk, as I don't like aluminum tweeters in the front (too close and bright to me), although I experimented with silk in the front and aluminum in the rear and really liked how the highs kind of balanced each other for a nice neutral "clarity", if you will, so that's what I got now (rears are not HEX, they are Diamond Audio D6 in 6.5").

I used to have CDT Audio speakers in my E46 M3, and they were also excellent for the price, as I got the CL series (CL-6) component set, CL-69 mid/subs, the Upstage system and HD and EX crossovers. The thing that I like the most from CDT is that they can sell you whatever combo you want and not a fixed set. So you can add, remove or mix crossovers, tweeters, mids, whatever you want to do. The CL-6 mid was very bassy and solid in the front doors, on par with my current D6's in the GTI rear doors.

The best trick was that CDT Upstage system, which simply does what it says it's going to do... bring the front stage literally to the front by an extra set of tweeters driven by dedicated crossover modules. By setting the Upstage module pletora of switches, you can expand the front stage up to the windshield at different levels. The problem with this add-on is that it requires that the tweeters be mounted in the A-pillar, and with side curtain airbags it will be difficult to find the right spot to install these tweeters to sound good and not be in the way of the airbags:

Overall, I'm very satisfied with both brands. Most probably will try some Focals (as replacement of the 4" components) for my E92 M3 once I get it, although it is difficult for me with the HEX performing so well so far.

sageashton · 06-02-2008, 05:46 PM

Technic that's great to know. I want to retain the stock location for everything so I would be getting just the two comp set from CDT. I just found a crazy special from woofersetc.com on a set of Eurosport comps (apparently it's above their HD line) for $300. I am waiting to find out if the depth is within th 50mm spec, but if so I think I may spring for them.

The real question for me is are these 'bright' or 'detailed' (there are many words for making your ears bleed at high volumes) or 'smooth' and 'warm'.

Since you are already familiar with the game, my current setup crossed over from sub to mid at 150 hz and then from mid to tweet at 3500 khz I attenuate / boost as follows:

25 - 150hz +2
200hz - 800hz + 1
1000 - 3500khz -1
3500khz - 10khz -4
12.5 -1
16 +2
20 +3

This gives me a nice warm sound with the infinity's but even then bring on a harmonica and let the hemmoraging begin. I cannot get through Dylan's "All Along The Watch Tower" intro (harmonica) without turning down the volume. I am hoping that the CDT's with better low end response and a silk tweeter should cure this. Also, it is important to note that this problem really began when I started passing more power to the speakers (first with the JL and far more with the PDX).

I know that the e90 has the woofers pointed across the driver, while having the tweet point right at you is the first 'oops' but it would be nice to not have to tweak the interior for when I sell the car (about two years and then I will spring for a 335i).

So after my book, could you elaborate on how you would categorize the CDT tweets if you can and the effect that both together play? As always, thanks.

Technic · 06-03-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sageashton

Technic that's great to know. I want to retain the stock location for everything so I would be getting just the two comp set from CDT. I just found a crazy special from woofersetc.com on a set of Eurosport comps (apparently it's above their HD line) for $300. I am waiting to find out if the depth is within th 50mm spec, but if so I think I may spring for them.

The real question for me is are these 'bright' or 'detailed' (there are many words for making your ears bleed at high volumes) or 'smooth' and 'warm'.

Since you are already familiar with the game, my current setup crossed over from sub to mid at 150 hz and then from mid to tweet at 3500 khz I attenuate / boost as follows:

25 - 150hz +2
200hz - 800hz + 1
1000 - 3500khz -1
3500khz - 10khz -4
12.5 -1
16 +2
20 +3

This gives me a nice warm sound with the infinity's but even then bring on a harmonica and let the hemmoraging begin. I cannot get through Dylan's "All Along The Watch Tower" intro (harmonica) without turning down the volume. I am hoping that the CDT's with better low end response and a silk tweeter should cure this. Also, it is important to note that this problem really began when I started passing more power to the speakers (first with the JL and far more with the PDX).

I know that the e90 has the woofers pointed across the driver, while having the tweet point right at you is the first 'oops' but it would be nice to not have to tweak the interior for when I sell the car (about two years and then I will spring for a 335i).

So after my book, could you elaborate on how you would categorize the CDT tweets if you can and the effect that both together play? As always, thanks.

If the opposite of "bright" is "warm" for you, then the CDT silk tweeters that I used to have indeed were "warm" (I just say that they were not bright at all

)

One thing that you could do with those CDT components that you are going to get is to simply set the crossovet Tweeter level to -2db if you feel that they are still "bright" to you. That's another thing that I like about CDT crossovers, the mid and tweeter level adjustability, because sometimes just EQ'ing is not enough to get the right balance for your car and for your music tastes.

Personally, I do all kind of settings from crossover levels tweeter to mid, front to back, to EQ, line driver gains, and amp gains (that's the one that I do the very least as more often than not it introduces noise and distortion), everything to get the right balance to my taste.

So it is more than choosing speakers to me.

VP Electricity · 06-03-2008, 09:22 PM

Interestingly (to a wonk like me, I guess) if a tweeter has resonances which make it sound "bright", it's not just its overall loudness. Inserting a cheap sandstone resistor - what most passive xovers do for that tweeter output level (and most good speakers do have that option) doesn't change the tweeter's tendencies to emphasize some notes over others - it just makes everything quieter.

If you want to maek good speakers with this option sound better, crack your crossovers open and use good wire-wound resistors in place of the sandstore. It helps. Also, feel free to upgrade the caps...

sageashton · 06-04-2008, 02:17 AM

Thanks guys! After some careful thought and looking at a ton of reviews, I think I will spring for the Morels in the very near future. I am hoping that gives me the sound I am looking for, if not then I will try the CDT's etc. etc. One thing about the CDT's is that it seems like the mounting depth is 2 1/4", which from my understanding is a little too deep for the door...?

I will keep you posted on the outcome of course.

Again thanks to Technic and VP. I know you guys donate alot of time to helping us 'not so educated' come up to speed on the audio. I am sure I speak for everyone that is doing amp, speaker, component and eq installs that we appreciate the two of you and your advise on our audio. For some (like me) you have helped make the daunting task of cracking open their baby far easier.

So thanks again. Chat at ya' later.

wheelman2925 · 06-04-2008, 02:42 AM

Well, as for anyone thinking of isntalling CDT audio ES component sets in the E90 front dooors, forget about it. The speaker fits as long as you never want the window to roll down again. I went as far as fabbing up a mounting ring and trying the driver's side door. I could barely get the snap retainers to hold even before I tried lowering the window. The depth is simply too much. Also to get the speaker to fit I had to grind three small "moons" into the outside of the basket to accomodate the stock speaker bolts. The CDT's have a greater diameter as well. Too bad because the deal on woofersetc.com is pretty darn appealing, even if I didn't plan on using them right now.

To fit a speaker in there it must have a smallish magnet and modest depth. otherwise a no go. This car is a real PITA when it comes to uprgrading the audio. The 4" size stinks. To get any midbass, you are pretty much forced to use the underseat area. A lot of people use the SWS-8 because it fits, but IMHO the sound quality is suspect. Nevermind the fact that the trunk must've been engineered as a bass trap.

gIzzE · 06-04-2008, 08:52 AM

I have put some DLS R4's in mine, I love this speaker!!

I put some Diamond HEX S400's in the previous car and Rainbow Profi's in the other car and have to say the DLS has a much nicer sound and is around 1/3 of the price of the others.

I mounted mine to the outside of the door card and used the DLS grille. You could mount them to the inside as there is just enough room, but this makes it a really easy install.

05-31-2008, 12:44 AM	#1
sageashton Second Lieutenant 11 Rep 221 Posts Drives: 2006 325i, Manual Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Santa Clarita, CA iTrader: (0)	Thoughts on good speakers? Ready for the next evolution of my audio upgrades and wanted some feadback from anyone who cared to share it. First, my system has steadily evolved over the last year. I have upgraded amps three times (JBL six channel amp, to JL a6450 to a PDX.5), I run an Audiocontrol DQX, replaced the stock subs with SWS-8's and am running Infinity speakers all around for mids and tweets. The PDX is rated at 75w x 4 and 300 x 1. The actual power on the certificate is 102w x 4 and 369w x 1, which is bad A$$ in my opinion and works perfectly for the subs (rated 150 rms each). But the Infinity's run at 50w rms! Also, after a year with the Infinity's I have to say, honestly, I don't like them. They are just too bright, even after trying every which way to tune them. I can tune them down to be 'smooth' but not natural. At this point I have the power, why not run some better speakers? So, which do you all have and what are your thoughts on them? And before people start slinging out that I go take a listen to them all, realize that I work ALOT and spend ALOT of time in my car. Going to several shops to listen to different brands is just not an option, thus your opinion really matters and I would like to here YOUR thoughts and descriptions on how the speakers sound. The more detailed the discription the better! For the curious, I am looking for a nice 'warm' sound that is natural and easy to listen to and highs should be crisp but not overbearing or harsh. Sibilance is an instant turn off. But I thought it would be fun to have a thread about the different speakers that fit the e90 and their effect when installed in the e90. Thanks!
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05-31-2008, 05:26 AM	#3
jehmarjeh Second Lieutenant 12 Rep 263 Posts Drives: e90 M-tech 2008 full option Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Amsterdam The Netherlands iTrader: (0)	Ever looked into Focal??? I think focal makes the best of the best compo sets. Deffinatly for what your looking for. http://www.focal-america.com
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05-31-2008, 03:20 PM	#4
VP Electricity Brigadier General 289 Rep 3,201 Posts Drives: F34 xDrive Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: portland oregon iTrader: (3)	I have always found infinity too bright. I think the Morel Ovation 4 are the class of the field. If you like warm, that is the best there is. The lower cost Morel Dotech are very good. I also like the Hertz HSK100 comp set very much in that price range. The DLS RS4 are great on a budget. I think the MBQ RUA210 are not as bright as the Infinity, but still too bright for me. The Focal high-end 4" are bright for me but a lot of people like them. They make a lower-cost 4" component set. The build quality on the Focals is great, I just am not a fan of the tweeter sound. As a rule, there are no US-brand 4" component sets that are worth a damn. Infinity, Boston, Polk, RF, Kicker, any of that. You will find that RMS ratings do not affect sound quality at all.
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05-31-2008, 07:30 PM	#6
sageashton Second Lieutenant 11 Rep 221 Posts Drives: 2006 325i, Manual Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Santa Clarita, CA iTrader: (0)	VP, thanks for the info! Focal = Bright Infinity - deafiningly bright (my thoughts) Morel = Warm It looks like Morels are the best for me. Any other thoughts?
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05-31-2008, 08:20 PM	#7
sageashton Second Lieutenant 11 Rep 221 Posts Drives: 2006 325i, Manual Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Santa Clarita, CA iTrader: (0)	What about Diamond Audio? Anybody have the hex series and what do they sound like?
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06-01-2008, 03:17 AM	#8
VP Electricity Brigadier General 289 Rep 3,201 Posts Drives: F34 xDrive Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: portland oregon iTrader: (3)	They use LPG tweeter in either silk or metal form - the metal ones osund like meatal ones, and the silk ones are still too bright. I know 4 people who have swapped the aluminum domes for silk and still were not happy.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-01-2008, 09:02 AM	#9
zanzig Private 2 Rep 60 Posts Drives: black e90 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Philippines iTrader: (0) Garage List 2007 e90 [0.00]	+1 for morel!!!
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06-01-2008, 01:55 PM	#10
sageashton Second Lieutenant 11 Rep 221 Posts Drives: 2006 325i, Manual Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Santa Clarita, CA iTrader: (0)	Anyone use CDT speakers before?
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06-01-2008, 02:26 PM	#11
silversurfer TiAg, ZPP, ZSP, Nav, CA, 6FL, butt warmer 2 Rep 78 Posts Drives: 2008 335i Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bay Area, CA iTrader: (0)	I've always liked the Infinity. MB Quart sounds really good too.
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06-01-2008, 03:28 PM	#12
1WickedE90 Major 198 Rep 1,009 Posts Drives: 2022 330i Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: CA, USA iTrader: (1)	I'm partial to MB Quart, particularly their Q-line - talk about "bright", though, these speakers are the epitome of bright! When I start building the audio system in my 328i, I'll probably go with Morel. I've listened to a few installs in different cars and I fell in love with its "sound". Definitely not bright, the highs have more of a smooth & relaxed quality to them.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-02-2008, 05:46 PM	#17
sageashton Second Lieutenant 11 Rep 221 Posts Drives: 2006 325i, Manual Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Santa Clarita, CA iTrader: (0)	Technic that's great to know. I want to retain the stock location for everything so I would be getting just the two comp set from CDT. I just found a crazy special from woofersetc.com on a set of Eurosport comps (apparently it's above their HD line) for $300. I am waiting to find out if the depth is within th 50mm spec, but if so I think I may spring for them. The real question for me is are these 'bright' or 'detailed' (there are many words for making your ears bleed at high volumes) or 'smooth' and 'warm'. Since you are already familiar with the game, my current setup crossed over from sub to mid at 150 hz and then from mid to tweet at 3500 khz I attenuate / boost as follows: 25 - 150hz +2 200hz - 800hz + 1 1000 - 3500khz -1 3500khz - 10khz -4 12.5 -1 16 +2 20 +3 This gives me a nice warm sound with the infinity's but even then bring on a harmonica and let the hemmoraging begin. I cannot get through Dylan's "All Along The Watch Tower" intro (harmonica) without turning down the volume. I am hoping that the CDT's with better low end response and a silk tweeter should cure this. Also, it is important to note that this problem really began when I started passing more power to the speakers (first with the JL and far more with the PDX). I know that the e90 has the woofers pointed across the driver, while having the tweet point right at you is the first 'oops' but it would be nice to not have to tweak the interior for when I sell the car (about two years and then I will spring for a 335i). So after my book, could you elaborate on how you would categorize the CDT tweets if you can and the effect that both together play? As always, thanks.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-03-2008, 09:22 PM	#19
VP Electricity Brigadier General 289 Rep 3,201 Posts Drives: F34 xDrive Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: portland oregon iTrader: (3)	Interestingly (to a wonk like me, I guess) if a tweeter has resonances which make it sound "bright", it's not just its overall loudness. Inserting a cheap sandstone resistor - what most passive xovers do for that tweeter output level (and most good speakers do have that option) doesn't change the tweeter's tendencies to emphasize some notes over others - it just makes everything quieter. If you want to maek good speakers with this option sound better, crack your crossovers open and use good wire-wound resistors in place of the sandstore. It helps. Also, feel free to upgrade the caps...
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-04-2008, 02:17 AM	#20
sageashton Second Lieutenant 11 Rep 221 Posts Drives: 2006 325i, Manual Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Santa Clarita, CA iTrader: (0)	Thanks guys! After some careful thought and looking at a ton of reviews, I think I will spring for the Morels in the very near future. I am hoping that gives me the sound I am looking for, if not then I will try the CDT's etc. etc. One thing about the CDT's is that it seems like the mounting depth is 2 1/4", which from my understanding is a little too deep for the door...? I will keep you posted on the outcome of course. Again thanks to Technic and VP. I know you guys donate alot of time to helping us 'not so educated' come up to speed on the audio. I am sure I speak for everyone that is doing amp, speaker, component and eq installs that we appreciate the two of you and your advise on our audio. For some (like me) you have helped make the daunting task of cracking open their baby far easier. So thanks again. Chat at ya' later.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-04-2008, 02:42 AM	#21
wheelman2925 New Member 2 Rep 17 Posts Drives: 2007 335i SGM 6AT Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Jersey City,NJ iTrader: (0)	Well, as for anyone thinking of isntalling CDT audio ES component sets in the E90 front dooors, forget about it. The speaker fits as long as you never want the window to roll down again. I went as far as fabbing up a mounting ring and trying the driver's side door. I could barely get the snap retainers to hold even before I tried lowering the window. The depth is simply too much. Also to get the speaker to fit I had to grind three small "moons" into the outside of the basket to accomodate the stock speaker bolts. The CDT's have a greater diameter as well. Too bad because the deal on woofersetc.com is pretty darn appealing, even if I didn't plan on using them right now. To fit a speaker in there it must have a smallish magnet and modest depth. otherwise a no go. This car is a real PITA when it comes to uprgrading the audio. The 4" size stinks. To get any midbass, you are pretty much forced to use the underseat area. A lot of people use the SWS-8 because it fits, but IMHO the sound quality is suspect. Nevermind the fact that the trunk must've been engineered as a bass trap.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-04-2008, 08:52 AM	#22
gIzzE Major General 363 Rep 5,984 Posts Drives: F11 + 911 C4 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Norfolk, UK. iTrader: (2)	I have put some DLS R4's in mine, I love this speaker!! I put some Diamond HEX S400's in the previous car and Rainbow Profi's in the other car and have to say the DLS has a much nicer sound and is around 1/3 of the price of the others. I mounted mine to the outside of the door card and used the DLS grille. You could mount them to the inside as there is just enough room, but this makes it a really easy install.
	Appreciate 0 Quote