BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      03-14-2008, 12:35 PM   #1
Conemasher
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SCCA Solo II - If the 135i goes to DS...

What are the chances it will be the car to have? I'm hearing rumors that both the 128i AND 135i may go to D Stock!! If so, thoughts? Seems really quick for D Stock to me? Type R and 330 PP owners will be quite upset.
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      03-14-2008, 01:43 PM   #2
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JMHO, but it's not quite M territory, and I think it should be with the 335i, until it's proven otherwise.
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      03-14-2008, 01:55 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
JMHO, but it's not quite M territory, and I think it should be with the 335i, until it's proven otherwise.

The 335i lives in F-Stock, which seems pretty reasonable.

Putting a smaller lighter car with the same horsepower in D-Stock seems quite unlikely.
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      03-14-2008, 03:27 PM   #4
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I don't know if it'll end up in DS, but that's the rumor I heard from one of the board members (albeit a while back). The Type R was brought up and he said it's had its day in the sun (and also that just about every one has been stolen at least once heh). I'm all for it going in DS.
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      03-14-2008, 04:02 PM   #5
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I emailed the SCCA SEB to ask about classing for this season and based on the reply they do no want to rush into classing the 1-Series. While DS and even BS were discussed as possiblities, they feel the car should run in FS until they have a better feel for its performance potential.

EDIT 3/20/08: I gues it will be D Stock after all.
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      03-14-2008, 04:16 PM   #6
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Dam Mike. If they run it in FS a guy might be able to clean up in that class with a 1er. (And why are the Evo and STi in AS? ; -).
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      03-14-2008, 04:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
I don't know if it'll end up in DS, but that's the rumor I heard from one of the board members (albeit a while back). The Type R was brought up and he said it's had its day in the sun (and also that just about every one has been stolen at least once heh). I'm all for it going in DS.
Similar rumblings here. If it goes to DS, do we have a class killer or just a course dependency issue? I know Steve Snow almost trophied at nationals in a first year e90 330i in '06 (255hp). Lose a bunch of length, 150+ lbs., and gain 45+hp, then what? :smile:
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      03-14-2008, 05:35 PM   #8
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I doubt the 135i will be nationally competitive in any stock class -- it is simply camber limited due to the 'MacStrut' front suspension. No recent BMW has been very competitive at Nationals for that main reason. Now, in a class that allows modifications to correct camber and perhaps add a LSD there will be better possibilites, IMO. STX perhaps? Maybe DSP?
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      03-14-2008, 05:40 PM   #9
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STX maybe, but don't you think that you'd have to be pretty much throwing away your new 135i for street use, if you're going to prep it for DSP?
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      03-14-2008, 06:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
STX maybe, but don't you think that you'd have to be pretty much throwing away your new 135i for street use, if you're going to prep it for DSP?
Yes, if you wanted to be nationally competitive. When I got my E36 M3 to even a regional championship level of mods it was no longer very comfortable on the street. So I'm not going to worry about being even regionally competitive with the 135i (please, oh please, make me adhere to that statement!).
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      03-17-2008, 08:33 AM   #11
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I don't think the 135 has any chance of staying in FS. The car is too small, too light and has too much HP to stay classed in FS for long.

Most of the cars in the class are 200-600 lbs heavier, running 250-350 hp and are 72-74" wide and around 190" long.

I would guess the 135 will end up in AS or BS.
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      03-17-2008, 09:09 AM   #12
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Good point, Bill. I was surprised when they told me to run FS for now.
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      03-17-2008, 03:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
I doubt the 135i will be nationally competitive in any stock class -- it is simply camber limited due to the 'MacStrut' front suspension. No recent BMW has been very competitive at Nationals for that main reason. Now, in a class that allows modifications to correct camber and perhaps add a LSD there will be better possibilites, IMO. STX perhaps? Maybe DSP?
Good observation, Mike.

BMWs really are pretty disappointing in a competition environment when limited to the stock alignment range, wheel widths, lack of LSD, and the factory springs and shocks... As a BMW suspension design shop full of autocrossers we are painfully aware of how handicapped BMWs are in the SCCA Stock category, due to a painful lack of negative camber range in the front. There really is no other single modification that can improve a BMW's handling more than adding a LOT of camber, if it has a McStrut front suspension (and all of the BMW sports cars do). Its the only way to fix a strut front suspension design. But in the end, a stiffened and better valved BMWs with lots of camber has radically better handling than stock and really handles pretty damn well.

The other downfall to Stock classing with BMWs includes very soft spring rates and staggered width wheels. This is done to ensure copious understeer for the average driver, but a narrower front wheel and a softly sprung car just frustrates both autocrossers and track driver alike. Again, if only BMW had an optional Sport package that REALLY offered some sporty bits, like wider and lighter 17 or 18" wheels (not 19" blingtastic garbage) of similar width front and rear... and some significantly stiffer spring rates... call it an "R" or race package and make it NOT available with ANY luxury options - so the Yuppie buyers and greedy dealerships don't accidentally check this one off with every other possible factory option - and price it so it stings... Real racers will still pay a premium for this and it will allow others to legally duplicate that package... If BMW doesn't do this then another generation of BMWs will be ignored for showroom stock style road racing and Stock class autocrossing, like so many generations before it.

The last, and major detriment heaped on by BMW is the handicap made to all non-M cars specifically the lack of an optional limit slip differential for the past ~14 years. This cripples the corner exit capabilities of all non-M cars pretty dramatically. For BMW to spend a considerable amount of engineering time and money to design these twin turbo motors for the non-M cars, then to offer them without an optional LSD, is a massive oversight. I suspect most motorsports oriented 135 and 335 buyers would pay an extra $500-1500 to have a factory equipped LSD (it costs more than that to retrofit one after its built!).

Don't believe the marketing nonsense about how sports cars don't need a mechanical LSD to work effectively... notice how ALL of the M-cars still have a "Real" LSD and don't rely on electronically controlled braking to fake an open diff into putting down power. Meanwhile the direct on-track competition for most BMWs have up to three on-board Limited Slip Differentials with all sorts of whiz-bang programming to make them work effectively (Subaru and Mitsubishi AWD turbo cars).


BStock prepped E36 M3 - even with the largest antiswaybar available and a performance alignment, notice the excessive bodyroll, narrower front wheels/tires, and positive camber under suspension load in front. It was a front tire shredder!

So, to take a softly sprung 135 with 300 hp, with no limited slip, and not nearly enough camber, you will get: a tire shredding understeering mess that can't put any power down on an autocross course. Can it be improved with Stock legal equipment? Sure... custom valved shocks will be able to somewhat make up for the extremely soft springs, a massive front swaybar will help combat the lean (and slow down the camber loss to a degree), and a custom after-cat exhaust will free up more horsepower than a non-turbo car would reap... but its still going to have skinny front wheels, no camber, and no corner exit traction. There is no magic bullet aftermarket part that can fix all of the wrongs BMW has strapped onto the non-M cars it produces and still be Stock class legal. Even the M cars get brutalized in Stock class autocrossing due to their lack of camber and narrow front wheels.

I just wish BMW would give the racers a real sports suspension that fixed much of this. I suppose that wouldn't be good for our business if BMW did that. But BMW doesn't seem to be learning, and with so many places to improve these cars its easy for us to show substantial and measurable improvements with our suspension goodies.
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      04-22-2008, 01:53 PM   #14
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DS it is....

It's official:

http://www.scca.org/documents/Fastra...k-may-solo.pdf
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      04-22-2008, 02:27 PM   #15
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Glad that has been resolved for this season. Since I'm running street tires our region has a street tire class based on PAX ratios. A member with an NSX that I beat at the last event due to class PAX'ing wanted me re-classed higher. Too bad for him!
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      04-22-2008, 02:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conemasher View Post
So where does that put a 135i with a reflash?

And why are the 128i and 135i in the same class, seems odd to me?
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      04-22-2008, 02:37 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
So where does that put a 135i with a reflash?

And why are the 128i and 135i in the same class, seems odd to me?
Any ECU mods at all would move the car to D Street Prepared.
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      04-25-2008, 08:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
Good observation, Mike.

BMWs really are pretty disappointing in a competition environment when limited to the stock alignment range, wheel widths, lack of LSD, and the factory springs and shocks... As a BMW suspension design shop full of autocrossers we are painfully aware of how handicapped BMWs are in the SCCA Stock category, due to a painful lack of negative camber range in the front. There really is no other single modification that can improve a BMW's handling more than adding a LOT of camber, if it has a McStrut front suspension (and all of the BMW sports cars do). Its the only way to fix a strut front suspension design. But in the end, a stiffened and better valved BMWs with lots of camber has radically better handling than stock and really handles pretty damn well.

The other downfall to Stock classing with BMWs includes very soft spring rates and staggered width wheels. This is done to ensure copious understeer for the average driver, but a narrower front wheel and a softly sprung car just frustrates both autocrossers and track driver alike. Again, if only BMW had an optional Sport package that REALLY offered some sporty bits, like wider and lighter 17 or 18" wheels (not 19" blingtastic garbage) of similar width front and rear... and some significantly stiffer spring rates... call it an "R" or race package and make it NOT available with ANY luxury options - so the Yuppie buyers and greedy dealerships don't accidentally check this one off with every other possible factory option - and price it so it stings... Real racers will still pay a premium for this and it will allow others to legally duplicate that package... If BMW doesn't do this then another generation of BMWs will be ignored for showroom stock style road racing and Stock class autocrossing, like so many generations before it.

The last, and major detriment heaped on by BMW is the handicap made to all non-M cars specifically the lack of an optional limit slip differential for the past ~14 years. This cripples the corner exit capabilities of all non-M cars pretty dramatically. For BMW to spend a considerable amount of engineering time and money to design these twin turbo motors for the non-M cars, then to offer them without an optional LSD, is a massive oversight. I suspect most motorsports oriented 135 and 335 buyers would pay an extra $500-1500 to have a factory equipped LSD (it costs more than that to retrofit one after its built!).

Don't believe the marketing nonsense about how sports cars don't need a mechanical LSD to work effectively... notice how ALL of the M-cars still have a "Real" LSD and don't rely on electronically controlled braking to fake an open diff into putting down power. Meanwhile the direct on-track competition for most BMWs have up to three on-board Limited Slip Differentials with all sorts of whiz-bang programming to make them work effectively (Subaru and Mitsubishi AWD turbo cars).


BStock prepped E36 M3 - even with the largest antiswaybar available and a performance alignment, notice the excessive bodyroll, narrower front wheels/tires, and positive camber under suspension load in front. It was a front tire shredder!

So, to take a softly sprung 135 with 300 hp, with no limited slip, and not nearly enough camber, you will get: a tire shredding understeering mess that can't put any power down on an autocross course. Can it be improved with Stock legal equipment? Sure... custom valved shocks will be able to somewhat make up for the extremely soft springs, a massive front swaybar will help combat the lean (and slow down the camber loss to a degree), and a custom after-cat exhaust will free up more horsepower than a non-turbo car would reap... but its still going to have skinny front wheels, no camber, and no corner exit traction. There is no magic bullet aftermarket part that can fix all of the wrongs BMW has strapped onto the non-M cars it produces and still be Stock class legal. Even the M cars get brutalized in Stock class autocrossing due to their lack of camber and narrow front wheels.

I just wish BMW would give the racers a real sports suspension that fixed much of this. I suppose that wouldn't be good for our business if BMW did that. But BMW doesn't seem to be learning, and with so many places to improve these cars its easy for us to show substantial and measurable improvements with our suspension goodies.



What does one attribute the 2005 and 2003 D-Stock National championship wins to? A BMW 330i/ci took the number one spot in D-stock each of those years.

I am guessing the stock setup they used was a great big front bar, as much tire as possible, shocks, and a good alignment?

Although handicapped to some degree due to the items you mentioned, the 135i could probably show as well, if not better, than the 330i, right?
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      04-25-2008, 09:16 AM   #19
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Actually, the more I think about it, I know the answer to my own question:

Those wins were on Forbes ( good ol concrete!). Without LSD and the ability to put down traction on what I would consider the slickest asphalt in the entire world (Heartland Park), the 135i will suffer.


I ran the 07 MINI S in STX in 2007 at Nationals and suffered against the AWD traction of the WRX's. The very WRX's that I beat at home on a grippier surface by 2 seconds were running right with me at Nationals. I hate that surface!!
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      05-05-2008, 09:40 AM   #20
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What does one attribute the 2005 and 2003 D-Stock National championship wins to? A BMW 330i/ci took the number one spot in D-stock each of those years.
As the poster above said - Forbes Field had a concrete lot, and HPT has sligker-than-snot sealed asphalt. This change to HPT has had a dramatic affect on emphasizing AWD, and there are lots of classes in turmoil. But the SCCA only signed a 3 year deal with HPT so after the '08 Nationals this may no longer be a problem...

Still, with the additional power that the now DStock classed 135 has (300hp), and yet still no limited slip differential, I suspect the one-wheel-peel aspect will limit the potential of the 135 in Stock classed racing regardless of the surface. I just wish BMW had a "winter" or "performance" package with a factory LSD again! Even if it cost $3000, I know a LOT of people that would pay that with a smile (or retrofit it to their own cars after the fact). Come on BMW, step up...
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      05-05-2008, 10:41 AM   #21
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Guys, for Solo2/autox, the ediff worked pretty admirably, both in the rain and in the dry. I wouldn't want it on the track, where your brakes would pretty much melt away after your 4th session of the day, but for autox I got zero inside wheel spin. If I did get wheel spin, it was both rear tires, and I got some rotation out of the car using it, especially in the rain. it was a bazillion times better than my old e90 330i, which would just spin the inside tire when getting on it.
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      05-05-2008, 11:52 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by larryn View Post
Guys, for Solo2/autox, the ediff worked pretty admirably, both in the rain and in the dry. I wouldn't want it on the track, where your brakes would pretty much melt away after your 4th session of the day, but for autox I got zero inside wheel spin. If I did get wheel spin, it was both rear tires, and I got some rotation out of the car using it, especially in the rain. it was a bazillion times better than my old e90 330i, which would just spin the inside tire when getting on it.
Hmm.... no offense, but this is something I just have to "See to believe". I've heard similar user comments about other overhyped techno wizardry ("I'm faster with the ASC traction control on!") but in real racing experience these techno tidbits don't tend to enhance performance in a competitive autocross environment, not even in the rain. To me, accelerating with the brakes on wouldn't seem to help forward momentum in a racing situation much. BMW has tried this nonsense before with the X5/X3, and not having real diffs on these supposedly "off road" capable SUVs. Nonsense. What's the latest name for it? xDrive?

Other examples: active steering, SMG, ASC, traction control, yaw/skid control, electronic throttles, electronic dampening control, run flat tires, 19" wheels, etc. All of these things are touted as performance enhancing upgrades but actually make the cars slower in competition (or don't make it faster than the non-whizzbang option) and when given the choice, they end up in the trash bin during a racing/competition car buildup. Exclusion: ABS (this works, even in OEM form).

Now of course the aftermarket versions of these types of systems (that are tunable) can be made to enhance performance, such as traction control in a high horsepower race car and real semi-automatic gearboxes/launch control. The factory programming parameters for OEM versions of these systems have to work with "the lowest common denominator" driver in the worst weather on the OEM tires, and this just doesn't tend to suit competition use on stickier tires with a better trained driver.

Again, no offense to Larry N and I admit he might be correct - I'll just have to compete in a 135 and see it first hand to believe it. My semi-educated guess is: I can make a 135 wheel spin like there's no tomorrow and/or its going to be a slug coming out of corners if this is being "controlled". I hope this can at least be turned off, but more and more of these systems are nondefeatable. When given a chance to drive four E90s in an autocross environment on competition tires (Yokohama event) I was able to go fastest with every electronic nanny turned completely off (and that was after 3 stages of "almost off" before really getting them turned off), beating all other drivers in the same cars that weekend by a significant margin. Having done timed testing over the years with all sorts of electronic doodads on all sorts of cars, rarely does any of it make a competitive racer any faster.

Just my $.02. Your results may vary. :smile:
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