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      12-30-2008, 11:32 PM   #1
mechanicalmagic
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Returning to AutoX help needed

First, I'm a noob here. Been lurking, and now need some advise, the car is near.

I am an old guy. I did autox in the late 60's VW Ghia, (did pretty good) and early 70's with a Tiger. But, then family, kids and stuff got in the way.
Now I'm 60+, my 135i is at sea, due Port Huneme on 1/6/09 (Heijin). I plan to do a few autox in the SF Bay area, am a member of BMW CCA. I'm not into straight line, other than having a timing slip.

My car: manual, with sports package, daily driver. Weekend autox, real track time will be limited to BMW CCA, SCCA driver draining programs. (I can't afford a non-insured OOPS).

So, to the question.
It seems that understeer is common, but for autox, I would think keeping the rears on the ground is most important. So, a MORE beefy front sway bar lmight be needed. It may push, still get around quicker, since the rear has traction. I would like to stay legal in class.

TIA for any info, I'm off to the Rose Bowl, SHE is PSU. I may be at Port Huneme when my new love arrives.

DJ
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      12-31-2008, 12:12 AM   #2
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The local BMW autox does not use the SCCA rules. It is points based. Each car gets assigned base points and then each mod is assigned a certain amount of points on top of that. Then you get classed based on how many points you have. You can check out the system here:

http://autox.ggcbmwcca.org/classify.php

I ran a stock 135i convertible sport last year for most of the season. The car needs very little but does have some weak areas. For this year I am changing the wheels to 8.5" all around on lighter rims and ditching the run flat tires. I just bought a set of UUC sway bars that I will have on before the start of the 2009 season.

Play around with the classification system. If you are also running SCCA you may be more limited in what you can do.

Congrats on the new car. You will have lots of fun with it.

If you have any questions, let me know. I would love to see more 1-series cars out at the BMW autox.

-Matt
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      12-31-2008, 12:22 AM   #3
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Hey DJ,

Welcome to 1ADDICTS. Larry and Mikeo, both mods here, also are autox enthusiasts. Being an old timer ain't such a bad thing, never forget, "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill". :respekt: Heck, half our moderators are eligible for senior citizens discounts. :wink::biggrin:
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      12-31-2008, 06:03 AM   #4
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What are you looking to get out of autox? If you're not going to run pro solo I would avoid SCCA. The bay area events are packed and you get very little time on course. I've heard good things about BMW CCA and had very good experiences with the Golden Gate Lotus club, they usually run an event every 1-2 months from April to November.

http://www.gglotus.org/ggautox/ggautox.htm

The nice thing about golden gate is they have a pretty simple classification system, you're a lotus or you're not, so everyone is pretty much just competing for top time of the day. That said, to be competitive the best mod would probably r-comps and camber plates up front, sway bars might help to reduce the amount of body roll, but in the end you won't see any greater benefit than sticky rubber.
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      01-05-2009, 09:38 PM   #5
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Thanks for the responses.

Matt:
Thanks for the link to the GGC BMW CCA site, I had not seen that points calculator. I'm going to be on stock rubber/rims for a while, need to get a feel for the car first. And also hope to get some ideas from the folks around the course. Question: (Please be kind, I'm a noob). It seems to my old mind that going to 8.5" all around will eliminate understeer, by providing reduced traction in the rear. Seems the best traction on both ends would be better, and let the driver deal with Usteer. Help please.

Surname:
Thanks for the welcome, I've had an ARRP card for a while. And my grandkids are learning:
"Don't cross Grandpa, he never loses."
OREGON, the only place where a Black car can exist, because there's no sunshine. I'm glad there are people that like it, keeps them from moving to CA. ;-)

WabbitHunter:
I am looking for the thrill of of driving quick and precise, and comparing my (aging) skills to the young bucks. I have no plans to run SCCA, the GGC BMW CCA seems to have much more track time, from what I can get off the website/forum. I ain't dead yet. By joining GGC BMW CCA, I hope to get some track time at Thunderhill, Seca or Sonoma. Nothing serious, just a thrill to keep the old heart pumping. I have a clue on the rubber thing, did some "mechanics laps" at Thunderhill a few years back. Trying to get the pressure right, (not my Mother's tires). Any suggestions on vendors in the Bay Area?

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      01-06-2009, 12:43 AM   #6
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If you are in the North Bay try Winecounty Motorsports at Sears Point Raceway (or whatever they call it now). They offer 10% off and a free helmet bag to the Pacific Region BMW CCA members. Locally you can check out any motorcycle place in the area. Make sure the helmet is Snell 2005 certified. At the BMW CCA events you can always borrow a helmet as we have loaners but recommend getting your own if you will be a frequent driver.

Same size wheels (and tires) all around will certainly help with understeer. It will also allow you to rotate your tires as the fronts will take a bigger beating in the autox than they normally would on the street.

The GGC autox calendar has been announced. The first event is April4. Reg opens March 2. It will sell out in a few days so get in early.

http://www.ggcbmwcca.org/?page=calendar

Not sure exactly how old you are but the BMW club and SCCA do not require people 65 or over to do a work assignment.
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      01-30-2009, 08:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicalmagic View Post
First, I'm a noob here. Been lurking, and now need some advise, the car is near.

I am an old guy. I did autox in the late 60's VW Ghia, (did pretty good) and early 70's with a Tiger. But, then family, kids and stuff got in the way.
Now I'm 60+, my 135i is at sea, due Port Huneme on 1/6/09 (Heijin). I plan to do a few autox in the SF Bay area, am a member of BMW CCA. I'm not into straight line, other than having a timing slip.

My car: manual, with sports package, daily driver. Weekend autox, real track time will be limited to BMW CCA, SCCA driver draining programs. (I can't afford a non-insured OOPS).

So, to the question.
It seems that understeer is common, but for autox, I would think keeping the rears on the ground is most important. So, a MORE beefy front sway bar lmight be needed. It may push, still get around quicker, since the rear has traction. I would like to stay legal in class.

TIA for any info, I'm off to the Rose Bowl, SHE is PSU. I may be at Port Huneme when my new love arrives.

DJ
Hi DJ,

The lower wishbones are a step into the right direction in reducing some of the understeer. You may also want to add the M spec tension rods as well. The tension rods will keep the caster in check and gives you a better camber curve.

I have not autox in over 12-13 years now and don't know the rules anymore. Are you allowed a front anti-roll bar upgrade in stock class? Adding a front bar will help the car and my reduce some understeer. What you don't want to do is add a rear bar and lose rear end traction. If you can change the dampers, I would try a set of Koni's as well.

I am sure you already know the alignment tricks!
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      02-10-2009, 08:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
Adding a front bar will help the car and my reduce some understeer. What you don't want to do is add a rear bar and lose rear end traction. If you can change the dampers, I would try a set of Koni's as well.

I am sure you already know the alignment tricks!
I'd have to disagree. If the car is notorious for pushing, then adding a front sway bar is only going to further induce understeer. The 135i's front wheels and tires are too skinny, so to help cope with this (besides upgrading all your wheels and tires) would be to add a rear sway bar that will greatly subdue body-roll and initiate rotation.

- If you are serious about competing, upgrade the wheels and tires first.
- If you are just looking to improve the handling a bit, add a rear sway bar and buy better tires (Dunlop Direzza Star Specs would do you well in stock class).

Evo's are terminal understeerers and this is how we cope. I wouldn't worry too much about losing the rear end in your car. It may be rear drive, but understeer is built into the 135i and those skinny fronts will keep you in check. Have fun and good luck!
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      02-10-2009, 09:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canexican View Post
I'd have to disagree. If the car is notorious for pushing, then adding a front sway bar is only going to further induce understeer. The 135i's front wheels and tires are too skinny, so to help cope with this (besides upgrading all your wheels and tires) would be to add a rear sway bar that will greatly subdue body-roll and initiate rotation.

- If you are serious about competing, upgrade the wheels and tires first.
- If you are just looking to improve the handling a bit, add a rear sway bar and buy better tires (Dunlop Direzza Star Specs would do you well in stock class).

Evo's are terminal understeerers and this is how we cope. I wouldn't worry too much about losing the rear end in your car. It may be rear drive, but understeer is built into the 135i and those skinny fronts will keep you in check. Have fun and good luck!
Noticed how I said it may reduce some understeer! And I didn't say to add a bigger or smaller anti-roll bar. M3 spec bar is what I was thinking...same diameter with much improved bushings.

I think the orginal poster said he is running in the stock class....I have not autox in years, but if I remember correctly you may modify, install or remove the front anti-roll bar only!

Rear anti-roll bar modifications aren't allowed!

Regarding wheel width, I don't think that is allowed in stock class either! That also means tire width can't be altered much using stock diameter and width wheels.
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      02-10-2009, 11:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
Hi DJ,

The lower wishbones are a step into the right direction in reducing some of the understeer. You may also want to add the M spec tension rods as well. The tension rods will keep the caster in check and gives you a better camber curve.
Please advise, "caster in check", not sure what you refer to. I added Left=.3, Right=.4, degrees in caster and would not have a problem with a bit more.
In which direction do the Tension Rods change the Caster and Camber?

The camber is now at the "stock" limit according to the Hunter alignment machine. So, I'm not claiming any camber, since it's within the factory specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
I have not autox in over 12-13 years now and don't know the rules anymore. Are you allowed a front anti-roll bar upgrade in stock class? Adding a front bar will help the car and my reduce some understeer. What you don't want to do is add a rear bar and lose rear end traction. If you can change the dampers, I would try a set of Koni's as well.
I have the factory Sport suspension, which gets me a couple of points toward the next class. Until I get some track time, I'm going to play here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
I am sure you already know the alignment tricks!
I know nothing. I may have known something 45 years ago, but today, I am overjoyed to DISCOVER a new car in my driveway.
Please PM me with the inside secrets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canexican View Post
I'd have to disagree. If the car is notorious for pushing, then adding a front sway bar is only going to further induce understeer.
My last autox car was a Sunbeam Tiger. I KNOW PUSH, and thanks for using the old time version. Coming into a corner hard, cranking the wheel and NOTHING happens, yep that's push.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canexican View Post
The 135i's front wheels and tires are too skinny, so to help cope with this (besides upgrading all your wheels and tires) would be to add a rear sway bar that will greatly subdue body-roll and initiate rotation.

- If you are serious about competing, upgrade the wheels and tires first.
- If you are just looking to improve the handling a bit, add a rear sway bar and buy better tires (Dunlop Direzza Star Specs would do you well in stock class).
The problem I see is staying within a REASONABLE class. Going to an 8" front wheel adds points, stiffer roll bars adds points. Very quickly, I'm in AA. And frankly, I'm 63 years old. My reflexes were. I'd rather not be at the bottom of the list at the end of the day, and I know my days of being at the top are long gone. Hell, I have considered running M/S tires, then I could compete in B, a long way from AA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
I think the orginal poster said he is running in the stock class....I have not autox in years, but if I remember correctly you may modify, install or remove the front anti-roll bar only!

Rear anti-roll bar modifications aren't allowed!

Regarding wheel width, I don't think that is allowed in stock class either! That also means tire width can't be altered much using stock diameter and width wheels.
From what I read in the local chapter of BMW CCA Classifications, any mods are allowed. However, each one moves you toward the next class.

Thanks for the comments, sorry I was away for a while. Maybe after the BMW CCC in another week, I will understand the front end some a bit better.

Another thanks to HP Autowerks for providing the parts at the best price I could find. I DO plan on posting a DIY, buy have not found that round tuit.

Dave J.
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      02-10-2009, 11:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
Noticed how I said it may reduce some understeer! And I didn't say to add a bigger or smaller anti-roll bar. M3 spec bar is what I was thinking...same diameter with much improved bushings.

I think the orginal poster said he is running in the stock class....I have not autox in years, but if I remember correctly you may modify, install or remove the front anti-roll bar only!

Rear anti-roll bar modifications aren't allowed!

Regarding wheel width, I don't think that is allowed in stock class either! That also means tire width can't be altered much using stock diameter and width wheels.
WHOA, lets calm down here buttercup. You've got a whole lot of exclamation points that are painting quite the angry picture. I know its frustrating not having autocrossed in years, but don't take it out on me buddy. So, anyhoo, turns out you were right about a few things - well pretty much everything.

Basically, the BEST and only mod for stock class would be, as previously mentioned, some Dunlop Direzza Star Specs. I'd get good with fresh rubber and learn to control your car anyway before i'd go messing with the suspension - best to take things one at a time and understand how each modification is affecting the stock handling before deciding if it is an improvement.

I blame the fact that I've never competed in a stock class and forgot the strictness of the allowable modifications. Knowing me, I'd probably throw on a Hotchkiss Sway Bar and just paint it black so no one would know .

NOTE: Just saw that you aren't even planning on competing in SCCA, so everything I said wasn't exactly pertinent. Although, better tires are still your best bet. Besides, if you have prior autocross experience, you're not going to be at the bottom. You act like 63 = Hopeless. I'm 23 and I got my ass handed to me by a 74 year old in a C4 corvette on slicks in BSP. I myself have also taken down a pretty modified SRT-10. My point: don't assume you won't be able to perform just because its been awhile since you autocrossed.
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      02-11-2009, 11:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicalmagic View Post
Please advise, "caster in check", not sure what you refer to. I added Left=.3, Right=.4, degrees in caster and would not have a problem with a bit more.
In which direction do the Tension Rods change the Caster and Camber?



Dave J.
Hi Dave,

When you were replacing the front wishbones did you have a look at the other control arms that were in front? Those are the tension rods, and the stock ones contain a very flimsy rubber bushing which can cause all kinds of instability and caster changes under braking and acceleration. The M spec units come with a solid rubber bushing.

Harold
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      02-11-2009, 04:49 PM   #13
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With all due respect to the Master Mechanics and racers that have already posted...you are all completely wrong.

What you really need to do is get some instruction and re-learn how to drive in an autox.

This doesn't need to be expensive or even formal. Use your judgment and dollars wisely. Many local clubs offer newbs (returning drivers) beginner classes/courses appropriate to what you are trying to accomplish.

Here is a nationwide school that enjoys a good reputation-

http://www.evoschool.com

Messing with the car, buying parts, redoing alignments is all moot and a waste of cash and time if your driving abilities don't exceed the cars' current configuration.

I saw a guy with a nearly brand new Carrrera S get lost on a course 3 out of 6 runs at one event. It wouldn't have mattered if the guy had 1200 hp engine with 30 inch wide tires smeared with epoxy, he needed help driving. Conversely I have seen and been soundly beat by guys in cars only a mother could love.

Take care of the driver first and the car second.

Modding the car to make it better is fun, don't get me wrong, but first things first IMO.

With that being said, the stock RFT suck major donkey balls, but you may as well burn them up learning, then get new tires when they need replacing.

The car does understeer stock, but so what, being a returning driver that would be better than snap oversteer correct?!?!

My vote is leave it bone stock, take some classes, make some friends who can ride with you and give (good) advice, burn up the RFT's this season, and NEXT year mod the car as you see fit for what you want to do.
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      02-11-2009, 05:29 PM   #14
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YES, I understand the first thing to do is fix the nut on the steering wheel.
I've signed up for the local BMW Car Control Clinic available, and the first EVO school available. CCC is next weekend. EVO is in June, with an autox the next day. I also ordered "Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving" apparently connected to Skip Barber. Should arrive tomorrow.

I put the lower arms on because I wanted a little more road feel, and caster. I just felt too insulated from the road. (NOT to gain camber.)

Now for another controversial question.

Should I autox BEFORE the EVO class, and start getting my bad habits ingrained, or wait for the school?

Dave J.
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      02-11-2009, 06:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicalmagic View Post
Now for another controversial question.

Should I autox BEFORE the EVO class, and start getting my bad habits ingrained, or wait for the school?

Dave J.
Yes, autox before the school. Seat time is important. you will not develop any bad habits that cannot be broken after only a couple of autox. What you will get is seat time that will make you more confident. You will experience less "sea of cones" feeling by the time you get to the Evo school.

-Matt
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      02-11-2009, 10:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
With all due respect to the Master Mechanics and racers that have already posted...you are all completely wrong.

What you really need to do is get some instruction and re-learn how to drive in an autox.

This doesn't need to be expensive or even formal. Use your judgment and dollars wisely. Many local clubs offer newbs (returning drivers) beginner classes/courses appropriate to what you are trying to accomplish.

Here is a nationwide school that enjoys a good reputation-

http://www.evoschool.com

Messing with the car, buying parts, redoing alignments is all moot and a waste of cash and time if your driving abilities don't exceed the cars' current configuration.

I saw a guy with a nearly brand new Carrrera S get lost on a course 3 out of 6 runs at one event. It wouldn't have mattered if the guy had 1200 hp engine with 30 inch wide tires smeared with epoxy, he needed help driving. Conversely I have seen and been soundly beat by guys in cars only a mother could love.

Take care of the driver first and the car second.

Modding the car to make it better is fun, don't get me wrong, but first things first IMO.

With that being said, the stock RFT suck major donkey balls, but you may as well burn them up learning, then get new tires when they need replacing.

The car does understeer stock, but so what, being a returning driver that would be better than snap oversteer correct?!?!

My vote is leave it bone stock, take some classes, make some friends who can ride with you and give (good) advice, burn up the RFT's this season, and NEXT year mod the car as you see fit for what you want to do.
The OP wanted some suggestions on reducing understeer and keep the rear on the ground, and we gave advice.

If he were to ask the best advice for someone returning to autox, then would have suggested seat time and attend as many evens as he can.
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      02-12-2009, 08:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
The OP wanted some suggestions on reducing understeer and keep the rear on the ground, and we gave advice.

If he were to ask the best advice for someone returning to autox, then would have suggested seat time and attend as many evens as he can.

I stand by my post, at this point, it' still driver first. And it looks as if the OP is going that route as well, which is good to see.

And yes, a couple events first would be fine before an EVO school, I agree with the above poster.

He also stated- "I would like to stay legal in class." Which I may have mistakenly took as staying in stock class? He is a link to the SCCA 2009 rules. Of course the SCCA isn't the only game in town as you already know, but here the rules are anyway.

http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_R...Solo_Rules.pdf

Correct me if I am wrong, but changing the lower control arms will bump this car out of stock if that was the OP's intent? Front sway change is OK I think.

Anyway, we all just want to see the OP do well and have fun...
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      02-12-2009, 10:34 AM   #18
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Gentlemen,

Since my first post, I have learned a great deal. Thanks to your help, and my liberal use of the "search" function on several forums. I must say, there are a lot of different opinions.

Regarding my change to the M series lower control arms. That mod would definitely put me out of stock class in SCCA. I was not planning on running SCCA, but do plan on going to the local BMW CCA (Golden Gate Chapter). I am now on an (email) first name basis with the person that wrote the rules for the chapter. He is aware of the change, and we have discussed the Chapter classification system. Because I may continue with mods, I'm not declaring a class as of now.

Thanks again,
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      02-12-2009, 12:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but changing the lower control arms will bump this car out of stock if that was the OP's intent? Front sway change is OK I think.

Anyway, we all just want to see the OP do well and have fun...
Correct, also kicks you out of STU if you have or intend to install camber plates.
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