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      01-21-2010, 06:44 AM   #1
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Why get an M5 4.4l V8 TTif you can mod a 550i 4.4l V8 TT for less?

Many of us do not like BMW M going from NA to FI. But the thing most of us dislike is that M is no more going to build any special engines but just take the BMW engines and mode them. The best example is the X6 xDrive50i and the X6 M. We shall have exactly the same thing with the 550i F10 and M5 F10.
So why to take an M5 over a 550i?
1. You can mod a 550i for less than the price of a new M5, but you will have risks voiding your waranty.
2. Will it really cost less? You will surely not take a 550i with out any options? If you take some, it very quickly cost nearly as much as an M5, whereas the M5 has already very many options standard.
3. Will you really be able to tune the engine so as BMW M does? You maybe do not see it, X6 xDrive50i 4.4l V8 TT 407 hp / 600 Nm (N63) and X6 M 4.4l V8 TT 555 hp / 680 Nm (S63), but the engine tune is not only an ECU tune as you would do it to an X6 xDrive50i to get 470 hp / 680 Nm. It is much more complex, all the internals are changed. How much will it cost you to do to a standard N63?
4. BMW M is more then just engine tune, as it is, maybe now was, the case for Mercedes AMG. BMW M is on lightweight building. How will you build a CF roof, hood, lid and so. BMW M is aswell all about drivetrain. Stock M3 E92 handles better than stock 335i E92, and if you put KW V3 on the 335i, the M3 with KW V3 will still handle better. Technically there is a huge difference between X6 xDrive50i and X6 M (don't ask me I never tried any of them), but they are not real performance cars. So I do not need to say what a difference there will be between the 550i and M5, no 550i will come close to an M5. BMW M is more than straight-line perfromance.
Here are some examples of the N63 and S63 tuning on X6 xDrive and X6 M by Noelle Motors:
X6 xDrive50i:
Stock:
407 HP/5500 & 600 Nm/1750 (V-Max: 250 km/h)
Stage I: ECU
468 HP/5600 & 683 Nm/3000 (V-Max: 278 km/h)
Stage II: ECU, Turbo
507 HP/5600 & 710 Nm/3000 (V-Max: 288 km/h)
Stage III: ECU, Cat
515 HP/5600 & 710 Nm/3000 (V-Max: 290 km/h)
Stage IV: ECU, Turbo, Cat, Pistons
560 HP/5800 & 750 Nm/3000 (V-Max: 296 km/h)
Stage V: ECU, Turbo, Cat, Pistons, Manifold
650 HP/6250 & 770 Nm/2500 (V-Max: 312 km/h)
X6 M:
Stock:
555 HP/6000 & 680 Nm/1500 (V-Max: 280 km/h)
Stage I: ECU, Cat
671 HP/6250 & 830 Nm/2500 (V-Max: 312 km/h)


So you can clearly see how much the S63 is modified compared to the N63. It is very hard for the N63 to get to a only reprogramed and catless S63. Is N63 Stage IV more relaible than stock S63? I don't think so. After seeing this, imagine the M5 F01, which will be about 400 kg lighter!! And what about the next M3 F30 with its TT L6!!

For information about the Noelle Motors Tuning look at http://www.noellemotors.de/BMW_X6_E71.505.0.html
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      01-24-2010, 07:07 AM   #2
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As you can probably tell from my ID, I drive an '08 M3 sedan.

I hear guys all the time saying they can mod a 335 to go faster, and I'm sure you can. What BMW engineers have designed into the M cars that you simply can't accomplish on your own is perfect balance. The M3 is an absolutely stunning drive, and the engine is just one part of that.

The car handles, steers and behaves completely different than a normal 3 series on the road. It is a superior car in every way. Drive a 335 for a week. It is an awesome car. Get out of it and hop into an M3 and it is like you died and went to heaven.

The interior is just that much nicer. The exterior lines are just a bit sweeter. What you get is a whole that is much more than the sum of its parts. If you enjoy your car and enjoy driving, paying the premium to get an M car is worth every penny.

I am sure the new M5 will be much the same way. BMW will do a better job modding the new 5 series than you can, and by checking the M option you assure yourself of a car that is unmolested and protected by a manufacturers warranty that will not be contested.

One final thought. My last 5 cars were 5 series. All the big engine, "sport models", not the M5. After spending 2 years in a 550 sport, I can tell you that the M3 is light years ahead in every way.

You may give up a little bit of comfort (those comfort seats were awesome), but the drive is SO much better it really is worth it.

GET THE M.
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      01-24-2010, 04:32 PM   #3
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For many, modding engines is risky business. Spending the money outright for the M5 will probably be the route 99.99999% of owners will go.
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      01-25-2010, 06:16 AM   #4
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My thread title was maybe not very clear, but it was ironical. If I wrote this, it was because I saw many no liking that BMW M builds its engines on the base of BMW engines and not a completely new one as the 5.0l V10 (S85) and 4.0l V8 (S65). And no standard BMW can come close to a BMW M.
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      02-15-2010, 11:50 PM   #5
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It's one thing to "tune" the engine to M, or near-M, specs. It's a whole different story when it comes to the chassis. That to me is where the "M" comes more into play. You can get a 335 to beat a stock M3 in a line, but it's not an "M". Throw in a few twisties and the M3 comes storming back.
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      02-19-2010, 04:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewM3driver View Post
As you can probably tell from my ID, I drive an '08 M3 sedan.

I hear guys all the time saying they can mod a 335 to go faster, and I'm sure you can. What BMW engineers have designed into the M cars that you simply can't accomplish on your own is perfect balance. The M3 is an absolutely stunning drive, and the engine is just one part of that.

The car handles, steers and behaves completely different than a normal 3 series on the road. It is a superior car in every way. Drive a 335 for a week. It is an awesome car. Get out of it and hop into an M3 and it is like you died and went to heaven.

The interior is just that much nicer. The exterior lines are just a bit sweeter. What you get is a whole that is much more than the sum of its parts. If you enjoy your car and enjoy driving, paying the premium to get an M car is worth every penny.

I am sure the new M5 will be much the same way. BMW will do a better job modding the new 5 series than you can, and by checking the M option you assure yourself of a car that is unmolested and protected by a manufacturers warranty that will not be contested.

One final thought. My last 5 cars were 5 series. All the big engine, "sport models", not the M5. After spending 2 years in a 550 sport, I can tell you that the M3 is light years ahead in every way.

You may give up a little bit of comfort (those comfort seats were awesome), but the drive is SO much better it really is worth it.

GET THE M.
I would agree with you 100%, up until the F10 //M5. Because the huge difference between the 335i and the //M3 is the souls of the cars are SO VERY different, starting with their powerplants. You can't get any different then the N54 and S65 (I should know). However, the F10 550i and F10 //M5 I argue will not have that engine to help differentiate the souls of the car. Sure the S63 is different from the N63 (though I do not know what the official designations of the F10 engines are/will be) but the difference is not night and day like with the N54 and S65, they are in fact close to each other (though maybe detail engineering schematics would prove me wrong and ignorant). As a result, for the first time in my life, I am seeing the //M line be so watered down as to be not worth the price premium.

I know, I throw-up in my mouth just thinking of saying that last sentence, but in the end, I'm afraid its the cold, hard reality.

Here is to //M proving me wrong

Cheers,
e46e92
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Last edited by e46e92love; 04-28-2010 at 10:57 AM..
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      03-20-2010, 08:54 AM   #7
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Suspension bits, the DCT, and really cool seats. That's why you buy the M5.
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      03-20-2010, 11:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
So you can clearly see how much the S63 is modified compared to the N63. It is very hard for the N63 to get to a only reprogramed and catless S63. Is N63 Stage IV more relaible than stock S63? I don't think so. After seeing this, imagine the M5 F01, which will be about 400 kg lighter!! And what about the next M3 F30 with its TT L6!!
I would always have far more faith in the factory offering than a aftermarket tune offering, no matter how good or respected the outfit was.

Oh and I don't know how many times I have brought this up but I agree, what ever people's opinions are about the new direction that M-Division are taking with their engines it is hard not to get a little bit shell shocked when you consider just how quick the X6M is and then think that this engine is going into the new M5 with even more power and a huge weight reduction.
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      04-27-2010, 12:12 PM   #9
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AWD for the 550i and the fact that BMW is using the exact same engine for both made me not even consider the 550i. On top of that, I want a manual & we don't even know yet if the M5 will be available with anything but boring ass DCT.

I anticipate a 550i xDrive with the options I want costing me around 65k. A similarly optioned M5 is nearly 100k (edit: and that's a 2010 - F10s will probably be another 10k or so more. On top of that, insurance for the M5 will be considerably more. So yeah, it's a LOT cheaper.

Save the performance on the track etc etc arguments, at this point the M5 is more a frivolous rich man's status-plaything a la the X6M than a purpose-built track car. I would bet that less than 10% of F10 M5 owners will track their cars. If you're really concerned about track day, go buy an M3.. or for that matter, a Z06. Not a tricked out luxury sedan.

Last edited by ruxp; 04-27-2010 at 02:18 PM..
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      04-27-2010, 09:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruxp View Post
AWD for the 550i and the fact that BMW is using the exact same engine for both made me not even consider the 550i. On top of that, I want a manual & we don't even know yet if the M5 will be available with anything but boring ass DCT.

I anticipate a 550i xDrive with the options I want costing me around 65k. A similarly optioned M5 is nearly 100k (edit: and that's a 2010 - F10s will probably be another 10k or so more. On top of that, insurance for the M5 will be considerably more. So yeah, it's a LOT cheaper.

Save the performance on the track etc etc arguments, at this point the M5 is more a frivolous rich man's status-plaything a la the X6M than a purpose-built track car. I would bet that less than 10% of F10 M5 owners will track their cars. If you're really concerned about track day, go buy an M3.. or for that matter, a Z06. Not a tricked out luxury sedan.
I agree with you that the M5 is definitely NOT a track car. It's simply too big and too heavy. I'd say it's more of a business commuter, an executive sedan designed for high speed autobahn cruising. And even for this application its probably overpowered. But more power just means more fun, and in the end that's what these cars are all about. That's why I don't entirely understand the multitude of M5 owners on this and other boards who wax endlessly about wanting manual transmission, naturally aspiration, high revs, etc. As my daily driver, I'm looking forward to the next M5 that will have better gas mileage, more low end torque, and no SMG. And, no, don't start calling me a poser! I just know that if you want track capability, there are FAR better options out there than an M5.

I will have to respectfully disagree with the comment that "the M5 is more a frivolous rich man's status-plaything". Really, you could make that statement about any BMW, not just the M's, or any MB or Audi or Porsche for that matter. Aren't they all really just unnecessary, overdone modes of transportation? We could probably accomplish most of the same tasks with a VW or Honda at a fraction of the cost. Most of the M owners I know or have met, myself included, are just enthusiasts who want something fast, fun, and good-looking, and could care less about the associated "status".

As for your decision to opt for a 550xi, I don't blame you. I'd do the same thing if I had to endure MN winters. And the fact that it costs less is just icing on the cake. As you said, the F10 M5 will easily be $100K with options. Enjoy your new car come this fall!
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      04-28-2010, 01:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayyou View Post
I agree with you that the M5 is definitely NOT a track car. It's simply too big and too heavy. I'd say it's more of a business commuter, an executive sedan designed for high speed autobahn cruising. And even for this application its probably overpowered. But more power just means more fun, and in the end that's what these cars are all about. That's why I don't entirely understand the multitude of M5 owners on this and other boards who wax endlessly about wanting manual transmission, naturally aspiration, high revs, etc. As my daily driver, I'm looking forward to the next M5 that will have better gas mileage, more low end torque, and no SMG. And, no, don't start calling me a poser! I just know that if you want track capability, there are FAR better options out there than an M5.
If it's a daily driver, get the 550i.. Why the M5? You already have a 997 GT3 (imo one of the greatest track cars ever made) for track days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayyou
I will have to respectfully disagree with the comment that "the M5 is more a frivolous rich man's status-plaything". Really, you could make that statement about any BMW, not just the M's, or any MB or Audi or Porsche for that matter. Aren't they all really just unnecessary, overdone modes of transportation? We could probably accomplish most of the same tasks with a VW or Honda at a fraction of the cost. Most of the M owners I know or have met, myself included, are just enthusiasts who want something fast, fun, and good-looking, and could care less about the associated "status".
Well, the difference is that cars like the M3, Audi R8, 911 GT3, Cayman S etc have an actual enthusiast application; the M5 doesn't, really. But it's not exactly designed to be a daily driver, either. It's kind of like an SL600 Benz or an X6M in that regard (though the M5 is probably a lot more fun than either).

But yes, I do understand having fun on the highway, of course. The E60 M6 'vert is a dream car of mine. From the perspective of someone who can afford it and wants a fun commuter car, the M5 makes sense (though the E60 must get awful gas mileage). I personally would just get the 550i and put the 40k or so I saved toward a more pure "fun" car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayyou
As for your decision to opt for a 550xi, I don't blame you. I'd do the same thing if I had to endure MN winters. And the fact that it costs less is just icing on the cake. As you said, the F10 M5 will easily be $100K with options. Enjoy your new car come this fall!
Thanks, bro.
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      04-28-2010, 09:14 AM   #12
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"If it's a daily driver, get the 550i.. Why the M5? You already have a 997 GT3 (imo one of the greatest track cars ever made) for track days."

As a matter of fact, I'm retiring my M5 this summer and going a step below a 550i. I'll be dropping four whole cylinders down to a F10 535i, which I have on order for ED in July. I think it'll be a great daily driver.


"Well, the difference is that cars like the M3, Audi R8, 911 GT3, Cayman S etc have an actual enthusiast application; the M5 doesn't, really. But it's not exactly designed to be a daily driver, either. It's kind of like an SL600 Benz or an X6M in that regard (though the M5 is probably a lot more fun than either)."

You're right in this regard. BMW wanted an all-purpose luxury sport sedan with the M5, and the result is something in between a daily driver and a track car, while not really entirely satisfying either of these needs. Truthfully, there is no "one" car that can do it all.


"But yes, I do understand having fun on the highway, of course. The E60 M6 'vert is a dream car of mine. From the perspective of someone who can afford it and wants a fun commuter car, the M5 makes sense (though the E60 must get awful gas mileage). I personally would just get the 550i and put the 40k or so I saved toward a more pure "fun" car."

Right on, this is the plan for now. For the time being, I'll enjoy the cost savings and better gas mileage with the 535 (try 12 mpg and 180 mi/tank with E60 M5!), and then reassess when the new M5 comes out.
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      05-09-2010, 07:35 AM   #13
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I went through this buying more and more from the Dinan parts bin on a '94 325i. When I was finally sure I'd built my own cheaper M3, I drove one. I was wrong. Traded for an M3. Modded my 07 335i to do the same thing again. Same result. Can't wait for the new M5!
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