[DOUT]

Hey Everyone,
I have always been into modifying my car to match my sense of style and to satisfy my power urges, but have only recently been getting serious about track driving as opposed to street and canyons only.
I currently have an N54 335i with A&R Catless Downpipes, Borla Racing Catless Midpipe, and a Burger Tuning JB4. I will be getting a set of Apex ARC-8 rims (18x9 et42 square setup) with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires. (265/35/18 all around). As for suspension I have been considering KW V3 with Vorshlag Camber Plates, KW Clubsport, or the Ground Control coilover conversion. (Any recommendations?)

Anyhow, I only have about $2,000 to allot to rims + tires, around another $2,000 for suspension, and my engine mods are complete.

Unfortunately, I will not have enough spare money to invest in a limited slip differential as well, but will one be completely necessary? Do you think it is essential to have one or will I be fine without one? I may consider keeping the stock M Sport suspension I have and matching that with a LSD as apposed to coil overs.

Experienced track freaks or just knowledgeable forum members, please help me out!

[The HACK]

Save that money for the track. Believe me, if you have a knack for it you'll be spending between $4,000-$8,000 a year on track cost and consumables.

And having all that mod and r-comps on the car, you'll never know if it's the mods making you fast or if you're actually learning how to drive fast, until you get embarrassed by a middle aged woman driving a spec Miata lapping you within a 25 minute session.

[zsapphire7]

anything is fine... but if youre gonna fit those wheels/tires, youll need the suspension else it wont fit. looks like u got no choice but to go with no lsd

[e90pilot]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Save that money for the track. Believe me, if you have a knack for it you'll be spending between $4,000-$8,000 a year on track cost and consumables.

And having all that mod and r-comps on the car, you'll never know if it's the mods making you fast or if you're actually learning how to drive fast, until you get embarrassed by a middle aged woman driving a spec Miata lapping you within a 25 minute session.

Or some douche in a 325i chases you down in your Cayman S with RA888s. The Hack couldn't be more correct. Take it on the track first then see what you want.

[GaryS]

The r-comps will make the biggest difference, then the diff, then the suspension. But everyone is different, only you know what will make it the most fun for you.

edit: Agreeing with zsapphire7, make that the r-comps + camber plates will make the biggest difference.

[UltraRacer13]

STOP! Take the $ and buy an old e30 or e36. Don't do what I did which is exactly what you are trying to do here. Once you sink 4k into the wheels/suspension, you will find you need to sink 2k into an oil cooler so you can actually use the stuff. Then brakes. STOP now. Keep your 335 as is, and buy at cheap track car.

I was told the same thing, didn't listen and now regret it.

[mid-corner fun]

everybody makes the same mistake. Your track friends, instructors and track neighbors will even warn you about this and yet, you'll still do it. And the more you spend the more you get tied down in your current DD platform.

My self-serving excuse is lack of realization of the total cost of the sport over several years. The pigeon-hole estimate of the cost of the next few events, along with the wishful thinking that standard warranty will cover most consumables can get you only that far...

The first step is to admit you're an addict, 2nd step is to find that e30/e36, miata or 996.5 TT to fuel your addiction

[mike-y]

if you don't have much track experience, the expensive tires will go to waste. Sure, they will probably be better than what you have, but you will ruin them a lot faster as a novice driver. and really sticky tires will mask a lot of driving mistakes.

It's actually more beneficial to learn to drive on the track with crappy tires with lower limits. Then once you learn how to be fast at those lower limits, you will be able to really take advantage of a better tire and suspension setup.

So before you get too carried away, and dropping lots of cash, I'd go out to a few events without any mods, and get a feel for what track driving is all about. Then you'll be able to spend your money much more wisely, instead of possibly having to buy things twice, because you realize what you bought at first doesn't work right, or isn't exactly what you needed.

Originally Posted by UltraRacer13

STOP! STOP now. Keep your 335 as is, and buy at cheap track car.
I was told the same thing, didn't listen and now regret it

This man speaks the truth. if you get really serious about tracking, you will want to buy another car for that purpose. You can go faster for a LOT less money than what you'll put into a 335i with a cheaper, older car.

[ngng]

Originally Posted by DOUT

Hey Everyone,
I have always been into modifying my car to match my sense of style and to satisfy my power urges, but have only recently been getting serious about track driving as opposed to street and canyons only.
I currently have an N54 335i with A&R Catless Downpipes, Borla Racing Catless Midpipe, and a Burger Tuning JB4. I will be getting a set of Apex ARC-8 rims (18x9 et42 square setup) with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires. (265/35/18 all around). As for suspension I have been considering KW V3 with Vorshlag Camber Plates, KW Clubsport, or the Ground Control coilover conversion. (Any recommendations?)

Anyhow, I only have about $2,000 to allot to rims + tires, around another $2,000 for suspension, and my engine mods are complete.

Unfortunately, I will not have enough spare money to invest in a limited slip differential as well, but will one be completely necessary? Do you think it is essential to have one or will I be fine without one? I may consider keeping the stock M Sport suspension I have and matching that with a LSD as apposed to coil overs.

Experienced track freaks or just knowledgeable forum members, please help me out!

Save your $4k and put it towards track time, and get as much time in as you can. After you become familiar with your vehicle, and yourself as a driver come back and tell us what problems you're running into and we can give you potential solutions to those problems. Any money spent before hand is a waste IMO.

Generally, the typical progression not including power is:

1. better pads, racing brake fluid
2. suspension
3. wider tires, stickier tires (read: max performance summer)
4. some go BBK, others are fine without them
5. R comps

Driving acumen is not acquired overnight, and a good driver can drive any car well.

[ngng]

Originally Posted by mike-y

This man speaks the truth. if you get really serious about tracking, you will want to buy another car for that purpose. You can go faster for a LOT less money than what you'll put into a 335i with a cheaper, older car.

When you get serious about tracking, you'll end up with a Miata like I did

[335isGuy]

Listen to everyone here. As a BMWCCA instructor in Ontario. I see lots of guys come with Brand new cars, modded to shit and have slim to none experience on the track. Some are calm cool and willing to learn, some cocky as all hell because they are fast from light to light on the street. Take your money and spend it on driver education. Join a BMWCCA near you and take a school. Or go onto SCCA and see what schools are offered near you. Once you can understand yourself and your car at the limit you are ready to move forward.

And everyone is right. Dont dump a shit load into your Daily. I bought my E36 M3 5 years ago and it was bought as a weekender/track toy. Now I run in a series here in canada and it was the best thing Ive done. I mean Im faster than cars 5x more money then me and my M3 is 14 years old!

If need me upgrade pads, lines, and fluid. Then once you feel improvement in your consistency, line and confidence..... then you can move onto the next step.

[Outlaw 06]

My thoughts are that the single most important performance modification that any driver can make is professional racing instruction/coaching. This point can't be stressed enough on mod-happy forums like this one. Drivers who understand the fundamentals of car control have a much better feel for which of the car’s stock components are most inhibiting their lap times. At the track you can talk to other 335i owners before deciding to upgrade your car’s tires, suspension, brake pads, rotors, calipers, limited slip differential, etc.

To reiterate, DON’T modify anything on your car before tracking it on a road course a few times.

[DOUT]

Let me clear a few things up.
I have already tracked a couple of times with an instructor/more experienced driver beside me at some point during each track day, and I know for a fact that I will continue to work with instructors in the future. (That cost is no issue)
I am slowly learning and improving my driving skills.
Unfortunately getting another car is out of the question, and I will be modifying my car regardless of whether I track it or not.
That being said, I believe it makes the most sense for me to choose modifications that will be usable on the track.
For example, instead of getting KW V2's and just lowering my car for the street (with some improvement in handling), I might as well just put out the extra money and get KWCS or Ground Control with Camber Plates.
Instead of wasting money and getting a "nicer" set of rims, I will keep my OEMs on for the street and get a set of ARC8's with good tires for the track. Using my stock rims and tires on the track will be a waste of PS2 as they are runflats plus Ill just finish them in one days use. The pilot sport cups I will be getting are used sets with lots of tread left for a fraction of the cost new.
Brakes are free so I won't mess with them, however I may swap brake fluid for something with a higher boiling point i.e racing fluid.

I appreciate all the insight but would really appreciate it if you would just answer my question and not try to seem like king of the track world and tell me to do something else. I have already made the decision to stick to getting suspension and rims/tires.

Can anyone with an e90 335i n54 and track experience please give me some useful advice/insight as to what parts will be the best buy in this situation?
Thanks

[TSM330i]

I can speak from experience and I don't have the HP you have with your modded 335.

I had coil-overs, track only brake pads and no LSD my first track event. I wasn't able to balance my car in the turns. The inside tire would just spin and it was not easy to exit out of slower turns. My car is only a 330i and at the time the engine was completely stock so only 255hp.

LSD would help out greatly on the track. Get a good set of track only brake pads too. If you can't stop, all the power won't do you any good.

[ngng]

Originally Posted by AW325xi

I can speak from experience and I don't have the HP you have with your modded 335.

I had coil-overs, track only brake pads and no LSD my first track event. I wasn't able to balance my car in the turns. The inside tire would just spin and it was not easy to exit out of slower turns. My car is only a 330i and at the time the engine was completely stock so only 255hp.

LSD would help out greatly on the track. Get a good set of track only brake pads too. If you can't stop, all the power won't do you any good.

If you can't drive, all the car in the world won't you any good either

In reply to the OPs post above, I don't think any of this info is not useful. Personally, I think modding your car before hand works against you. Say you lower your car, run wider wheels, better brakes, and your Pilot Sport Cups. Now you have a car that is set up to handle very, very well. Here's the problem: your car may feel like it is unstoppable, but what you've really done is drastically decreased your room for error. That built in margin of error with OEM components is now gone. With your Sport Cups, instead giving you a bit of wiggle room that a street tire would offer, you'll just break traction.

That being said, what is your end goal? Can you verbalize it? Or do you just "want to handle better on the track" Do you want to dial in more oversteer, or dial in some oversteer? Are you unhappy with how your car rotates? Turn in? Pedal feel? Brake modulation? Pad bite? You're asking very general questions.

[DOUT]

Originally Posted by ngng

If you can't drive, all the car in the world won't you any good either

In reply to the OPs post above, I don't think any of this info is not useful. Personally, I think modding your car before hand works against you. Say you lower your car, run wider wheels, better brakes, and your Pilot Sport Cups. Now you have a car that is set up to handle very, very well. Here's the problem: your car may feel like it is unstoppable, but what you've really done is drastically decreased your room for error. That built in margin of error with OEM components is now gone. With your Sport Cups, instead giving you a bit of wiggle room that a street tire would offer, you'll just break traction.

That being said, what is your end goal? Can you verbalize it? Or do you just "want to handle better on the track" Do you want to dial in more oversteer, or dial in some oversteer? Are you unhappy with how your car rotates? Turn in? Pedal feel? Brake modulation? Pad bite? You're asking very general questions.

I am in a bit of an awkward position at the moment because from my point of view everyone seems to believe that I have no prior driving experience and just want to modify my car to be the cool kid with the fastest car on the block.
Fortunately that is not the situation
I enjoy driving and would like to continue driving my car on the race track.
At the beginning, my goal was to be as efficient as possible in not wasting my resources as I improve my skills on the track. (going from time to time with an experienced friend or instructor who can teach me and help me improve)
Knowing that I am the most experienced driver with a car that handles well from the start, I wanted to get a spare set of rims/tires for the track so I don't eat up my stock runflats. From then I realized that a square setup is in my best interest as it allows for a balanced turn in with minimal understeer and I have the benefit of being able to rotate my wheels so I can get the most use out of them. That being said, in order to run a 255 square setup or even a 265 square setup, I would need to shave my front fenders and/or get a suspension setup with adjustable front camber.

I am very happy with the car's handing in stock form, to be honest with you I believe it is well balanced and can be controlled quite well in the most harsh of corners with a good driver. That is with the stock wheels and tires, the square setup I would like to run wont fit well with the oem suspension so that is why I will be upgrading the suspension. Not to mention the benefit of adjustable ride height, compression, dampening, and camber.

If I don't overwork the car and let it cool down between sessions, I believe the oem brakes are quite suitable for my needs and don't need to be upgraded just yet. I have had an instance of brake fade but that was after about an hour of hard driving in a relatively hot climate - something that could have been avoided.

My main question from the original post was whether or not a limited slip differential would in fact be necessary. As of now I will just continue without one and see how it goes. Maybe I will invest in one in the future.

[flip4335]

Originally Posted by DOUT

My main question from the original post was whether or not a limited slip differential would in fact be necessary.

My $.02USD:

FYI, BMW uses an electronic differential, and e-diff applies the brakes, so when you think you are powering out of a turn, you are actually braking and all of the cars without e-diff are passing you by.

1. LSD is the first mod I ever made, for safety, maintenance (brake wear) and tracking reasons. Read my impressions under my sig. This makes your car more controllable because you will have power to do things others with nanny controls can't, like power out of a turn sooner and faster using more of your car's traction than others with a tune. Then you will be able to track your car with DCT completely off, using threshold braking to power your way through, just like the old days before nanny controls were introduced, and then you could drift 'til you shredded your tires (LOL). You would probably beat most in your class with just street tires because of the LSD.

2. Next, I would replace suspension parts with M3 bits, because they eliminate the slop and roll that our OEM sports suspensions generate under extreme conditions. Thank goodness the parts are mostly bolt-on and interchangeable.

3. Together with the M3 suspension bits that you could get from Harold at HPA or Tischer, I would install AST 4100s with Swift linear Springs at 400/800 front/rear.

Yes, the above are a bit pricey, but well worth the effort. The rest is up to you.

[DOUT]

Originally Posted by flip4335

My $.02USD:

FYI, BMW uses an electronic differential, and e-diff applies the brakes, so when you think you are powering out of a turn, you are actually braking and all of the cars without e-diff are passing you by.

1. LSD is the first mod I ever made, for safety, maintenance (brake wear) and tracking reasons. Read my impressions under my sig. This makes your car more controllable because you will have power to do things others with nanny controls can't, like power out of a turn sooner and faster using more of your car's traction than others with a tune. Then you will be able to track your car with DCT completely off, using threshold braking to power your way through, just like the old days before nanny controls were introduced, and then you could drift 'til you shredded your tires (LOL). You would probably beat most in your class with just street tires because of the LSD.

2. Next, I would replace suspension parts with M3 bits, because they eliminate the slop and roll that our OEM sports suspensions generate under extreme conditions. Thank goodness the parts are mostly bolt-on and interchangeable.

3. Together with the M3 suspension bits that you could get from Harold at HPA or Tischer, I would install AST 4100s with Swift linear Springs at 400/800 front/rear.

Yes, the above are a bit pricey, but well worth the effort. The rest is up to you.

Wow, thank you so much.
That is awesome advice

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by DOUT

I appreciate all the insight but would really appreciate it if you would just answer my question and not try to seem like king of the track world and tell me to do something else.

LOL I answered your question. I learned on my first track day, if my instructor insists on setting different priorities for me than my priorities, I just ask for a different instructor.

[328skidpad]

Great advice from all. I have gone 3 times to a autocross events and have learned a lot from experienced drivers.

Its funny when you think you are a experienced driver and then a instructor drives your car and gets 5-6 second less then you did. You walk away thinking wow, the instructor drove considerably slower than I did and beat me by 5-6 seconds. Thats knowledge.

What I learned in 10 minutes of drive time would have taken me 10-20 hours if I had read a book or books...

BMW CCA is Awesome...

[DOUT]

Originally Posted by GaryS

LOL I answered your question. I learned on my first track day, if my instructor insists on setting different priorities for me than my priorities, I just ask for a different instructor.

Yes, you did so very well.
Thank you sir