[RWDinWisconsin]

After a Cobb install I am looking to go with an FMIC. Seems like there are several options out there, at several price points, with various opinions on performance vs value.

Has anyone done an actual performace comparison to determine the thermal effectiveness of each on a test bench keeping all variables constant except the actual FMIC? i.e. a true apples to apples comparison.

Ideally the setup would be in a lab with a hot blower simulating the intake air at a several controlled temperature and flow rate set points to simulate engine load, and a fan blowing ambient air across the FMIC at several temperatures and velocities to simulate outside temperature and vehicle speed. The output variable of the test setup would be the temperature drop across the FMIC.

If this exists, can someone guide me to it? If not, any suppliers out there care to join in and send me a sample and I'll run the tests. If enough of them can be found I think it is worth setting up a test and running it.

Thanks!

[mundo74]

Just look around for logs of various iat vs boost (rough for load) vs ambient for different fmic. Lab testing is ok but nothing beats real world data.

[Zasquatch]

Have you read the cp-e whitepaper on their testing? It's on their website on the N54 FMIC page. Only compares OEM to CP-e though.

[RWDinWisconsin]

Thanks for the tip on the CPE write up, this is a great writeup and exactly what I am looking for. As an engineer reading it, its clear to me they understand experimental procedure and process. I would love to see them test their competitors products in the same fashion.

I must disagree with the assessment that labs are okay but real world is better. A proper test setup needs to be calibrated to real world conditions, but to get a true understanding of a single component's performance you need to be able to control the variables of the test. By looking at multiple datalogs off of different cars in different ambient conditions and other mods you don't truly know what is driving the results.

As an example, if two different people buy the same FMIC but they mount them behind different bumpers this will affect the flow of air across the FMIC, then they have different intakes, and are driving in different climates with different barometric pressure, humidity, and temperature. You could have one system that is truly a more efficient system appear to be the weaker system.

What CPE has done is take out data aliasing by controlling all variables except the actual intercooler's performance, well done.

FYI, I hate the show "Mythbusters" simply because those guys are idiots when it comes to experimental procedure. People might think it is entertaining, but there are much better ways to determine if a Porsche 928 is more aerodynamic backwards than what they did. Its called a scale model, a wind tunnel, and an understanding of fluid mechanics.

[flexinator]

Don't knock mythbusters! They never claim to be experts at anything other than blowing shit up. I could knock holes through their reasoning on almost every show... But the point is to test out these myths in real life to show the science. Any high school ap physics student could do the science better... But no one would watch.

Also, I'd love to see a fmic comparison... But no manufacturer would do it unless it showed theirs the best... I am open to ideas... Comparing intake temps on different cars with different fmics would be a start...

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by flexinator

Don't knock mythbusters! They never claim to be experts at anything other than blowing shit up. I could knock holes through their reasoning on almost every show... But the point is to test out these myths in real life to show the science. Any high school ap physics student could do the science better... But no one would watch.

Also, I'd love to see a fmic comparison... But no manufacturer would do it unless it showed theirs the best... I am open to ideas... Comparing intake temps on different cars with different fmics would be a start...

That is an incorrect statement... Helix has offered up our intercooler for testing on a multitude of occasions, we have even offered our shop and test equipment(dyno, pressure differential gauges, ait dataloggers, FlIR camera etc) for an INDEPENDANT test. By INDEPENDANT I mean we would be there to show the testing parties how to use the equipment properly and assist them BUT would not run the tests. Sadly no other manufacturers want to join the party but WHY? As you stated they would want to WIN and anyone with a professional understanding of intercooler design knows MOST won't even come close due to the simple fact that most don't have many or all the factors that are needed to win a contest that encompasses everything an intercooler is trying to accomplish with the following test criteria:
-AIT temp rise/intercooler efficiency in a 1-4 gear wide open throttle run
-recovery time back to starting temp after the above run
-the intercoolers ability to thwart heatsoak/thermal reserve(time it takes to heatsoak the fmic)
-pressure drop

For an intercooler to be good at all of the above it would need:
-A large exposed ambient face maximizing the ambient air charge at its disposal
-Alot of charge rows to cool the charge air and alot of ambient rows to wick the heat off
-A dense fin pack
-rounded end tanks with unrestrictive inlets and outlets
-unrestricted(rounded) inlets to the ambient and charge rows at the core face
-a large thermal mass

Hmmm I wonder what intercooler does ALL that???

So let it be known AGAIN Helix would be more than happy to throw our hat into the game

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by RWDinWisconsin

After a Cobb install I am looking to go with an FMIC. Seems like there are several options out there, at several price points, with various opinions on performance vs value.

Has anyone done an actual performace comparison to determine the thermal effectiveness of each on a test bench keeping all variables constant except the actual FMIC? i.e. a true apples to apples comparison.

Ideally the setup would be in a lab with a hot blower simulating the intake air at a several controlled temperature and flow rate set points to simulate engine load, and a fan blowing ambient air across the FMIC at several temperatures and velocities to simulate outside temperature and vehicle speed. The output variable of the test setup would be the temperature drop across the FMIC.

If this exists, can someone guide me to it? If not, any suppliers out there care to join in and send me a sample and I'll run the tests. If enough of them can be found I think it is worth setting up a test and running it.

Thanks!

Again Helix would be willing to submit to a controlled lab test. However, the testing would have to be done with the intercoolers in the nose of an actual car or a test jig setup to replicate one... The reason being is some manufacturers increase their core size in areas NOT exposed to ambient airflow(the unexposed core below the cowl)also the stock height intercoolers don't maximize the ambient airflow either so any test that wants to be considered valid will have to account for that and replicate the ambient conditions they would see on a car

Here is a pic of the Helix next to an AMS please look at the mounting brackets on each intercooler the core above those mounting brackets is the exposed face to the ambient airflow(which is the cooling medium) look at the amount of face/charge rows on each that is actually exposed to the cooling medium!

[RWDinWisconsin]

100% agree about the bumper and the affect it will have on the airflow across the core.

Exact same concept applies to diesel particulate filters (and catalytic converters), the metric is called gamma and it is used to calculate the distribution of flow across the face of the substrate. No sense in having precious metal sitting on a substrate if the exhaust gas doesn't see it, just wasted money.

Anyway, it looks like we have one FMIC willing to participate....

Any others willing to throw their product into the mix? If we get a few I think it is worth putting together a test plan and sorting this out.

[E3r2E9r]

I think there are plenty of intercooler threads to determine some popular choices and proven performance gains.

[trufus]

Originally Posted by E3r2E9r

I think there are plenty of intercooler threads to determine some popular choices and proven performance gains.

You missed the point. Most aftermarket FMICs will provide some performance gains, but the threads in the forum are largely subjective or scientifically bogus. OP wants a properly documented and executed scientific study of IC performance. This is the kind of thing that will keep manufacturers honest and spur them to improve performance.

I would be very interested to read anything that came out of this effort.

[RWDinWisconsin]

What he said.....

Scientific.

[RWDinWisconsin]

Bump for Sunday evening readers...

[venom3469]

I would love to see a comparison between Helix, Active Autowerk, HPF, and ETS...I would settle for just the first two being thoroughly inspected and tested to see which is best...

[Chalo1]

AMS IMO. Hands down.

[Joshboody]

It would be great to see some test results. I've personally logged AMS and Helix and would consider these very good but in different areas. From what i have seen nothing beats Helix in IATs. And AMS has very good flow.

I would be most curious to see ETS results against these ICs sense many push this brand... Just out of curiosity.

[marconi118]

What about the large version of Wagner (copy of helix) is it working as good as the original Helix????

[alnk1015]

This is a very easy task for a university. It won't be free. Well, if you can convince one of the lab class project (heat transfer or fluids lab) to incorporate this, then they can prob do it for free.

Just need to "donate" the intercoolers. The graduate students will be able to come up with the correct procedures and comparisons which the undergrad students will need to replicate.

Most major universities already have all the equipments required to do these type of testing.

What would be easier is if cp-e just ran the same test that they ran on their product for all the others.

Helix can donate their fmic and labor fees just to get it rolling?

[djjasper]

Originally Posted by marconi118

What about the large version of Wagner (copy of helix) is it working as good as the original Helix????

I think it would be great to include the Wagner if this ever really happens. No better way to prove or disprove the restriction of air flow from the Wagner using the small diameter factory coupler vs. the wide open Helix.

[RWDinWisconsin]

Sounds like we're getting some interest in consumers who would be interested in seeing this testing done.

Helix has thrown their name in the hat to submit to an unbiased lab test.

If we get enough of a group of suppliers interested in this, I will take the lead on coordinating this test. I am a degreed mechanical engineer, work for a company that will have the capability to run this testing by next fall when our new lab is built, and also have connections at a local university that we could potentially use if needed.

So, what other suppliers are willing to join Helix and throw their product into the mix?

[alnk1015]

Originally Posted by RWDinWisconsin

Sounds like we're getting some interest in consumers who would be interested in seeing this testing done.

Helix has thrown their name in the hat to submit to an unbiased lab test.

If we get enough of a group of suppliers interested in this, I will take the lead on coordinating this test. I am a degreed mechanical engineer, work for a company that will have the capability to run this testing by next fall when our new lab is built, and also have connections at a local university that we could potentially use if needed.

So, what other suppliers are willing to join Helix and throw their product into the mix?

That is perfect. If you can, it'll be interesting to see the effect of the bumper and the radiator.

Just from the looks of it, part of the Helix design overlaps the radiator. Correct me if I am wrong. There will be some radiation and maybe contact heat transfer there. Others seems to just lay below the radiator.

Also when you test this, test them with the plumbing that is intended. Those clip ons will use stock hoses. Those that come with metal pipes with couplings will use those.

[Bronze]

An interesting idea. I think you need a larger sample size per IC in order for the test to document some feasible results. Even using a test rig set up, there will be variation in the ICs themselves, as well as noise factors such as the measurement equipment, ambient air, operator, etc. ALso, there's more to IC performance than just intake temps, correct? I'm not an expert on intercooling, but pressure drop is also factor. I have a good friend in the air intake world, and they tend to use manifold pressure more than temp when designing the air intake side of the engine equation in a car (which has tradeoffs due to packaging, cost, assembly, service, etc.)

Then there is the problem of translating this test rig data to vehicle results, where the variable count, either controlled or noise factors, is huge (temp sensor, hose attachments, engines, exhausts, etc.).

I'm not saying this cannot be done, but I'm also opining that doing a test of one sample per brand on a test rig is very limited data.

[Syndicategt]

Quick Google search shows a 11 page thread aptly named "FMIC Comparison - Data Compilation". You will find a decent amount of information on there, but it's not all inclusive.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295153