M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > F10 M5 Forum > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-03-2013, 02:05 PM   #1
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Remus F10 M5 Exhaust Closeup and Dyno Chart

closed

Last edited by richb811; 05-18-2017 at 11:54 AM..
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2013, 10:23 PM   #2
RPiM5
Major General
RPiM5's Avatar
2856
Rep
7,883
Posts

Drives: Mexico Blue F10 M5(Mika)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Wow, didn't see this one coming. Looks cool!
__________________


Appreciate 0
      04-04-2013, 03:14 AM   #3
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

I have a Remus quad on my F10 with N53 engine. Really pleased with the sound and quality of the exhaust.

With all the discussion about dynoing (and how it's "impossible" to do it right on the F10 M5) it's interesting to see Remus, Akrapovic and Supersprint have dyno graphs with before and after runs that seems to be genuine.

If it was "impossible" to dyno the F10 M5 and that the DME would alter the ignition etc to create bogus numbers, we should not get these dyno graphs either?
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2013, 09:17 AM   #4
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I have a Remus quad on my F10 with N53 engine. Really pleased with the sound and quality of the exhaust.

With all the discussion about dynoing (and how it's "impossible" to do it right on the F10 M5) it's interesting to see Remus, Akrapovic and Supersprint have dyno graphs with before and after runs that seems to be genuine.

If it was "impossible" to dyno the F10 M5 and that the DME would alter the ignition etc to create bogus numbers, we should not get these dyno graphs either?
Glad you are digging your Remus

Personally, I haven't heard about the M5 being impossible to Dyno. But it sounds like someone hiding from providing their numbers, or maybe not knowing how to calibrate the dyno correctly.
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2013, 11:18 AM   #5
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Coldlist on this forum has made several comments about dyno sessions on the F10 M5 and that his own M5 had some very strange behaviour on the dyno after having his ECU remapped (engine throttling up and down and the car having less HP after the tune than before).

The tuner explained that this was because of the specific requirements needed to dyno the M5 (like airspeed to the car having to match the speed on the speedo while running the car on the dyno and the bonnet having to be closed).

In view of this it seems odd how others apparently have no problems getting results that match BMW numbers and that also can be repeated and show a believable power gain throughout the RPM range. Either he's been led to believe this to "explain" the issues he experienced after his software tuning or there is some truth to it.
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2013, 11:23 AM   #6
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Coldlist on this forum has made several comments about dyno sessions on the F10 M5 and that his own M5 had some very strange behaviour on the dyno after having his ECU remapped (engine throttling up and down and the car having less HP after the tune than before).

The tuner explained that this was because of the specific requirements needed to dyno the M5 (like airspeed to the car having to match the speed on the speedo while running the car on the dyno and the bonnet having to be closed).

Seems odd how others apparently have no problems getting results that match BMW numbers and that also can be repeated and show a believable power gain throughout the RPM range.
Interesting. Replicating air flow/speed and Intake temperatures and applicable heat soak are generally considerations when running a dyno. For the most part people know they aren't going to be able to duplicate exact real world conditions, which is why the dyno is calibrated for the car and a correction factor is applied to act as a control measure for the subsequent runs.

I haven't seen the thread but I'll see if I can find it and take a read.
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2013, 11:37 AM   #7
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Try these threads:

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805811

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=798382

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=815669
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2013, 03:26 PM   #8
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Cheers, thanks!
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2013, 11:21 PM   #9
avlnch
Lieutenant Colonel
125
Rep
1,622
Posts

Drives: 2013 Individual M5
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South FL

iTrader: (0)

Hearing that the F10 M5 is impossible to dyno sounds, well.. very odd. Especially since reputable German companies such as Akra and others are posting dynos.
__________________
2013 BMW INDIVIDUAL ///M5 {Frozen Black/Amaro Brown/Amaro Brown Alcantara/White Contrast Stitching/Piano Black Trim}
Appreciate 0
      04-08-2013, 08:03 AM   #10
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by avlnch View Post
Hearing that the F10 M5 is impossible to dyno sounds, well.. very odd. Especially since reputable German companies such as Akra and others are posting dynos.
Yes, I have my suspicions about this also. The guy seems pretty adamant about it but I haven't seen any proof to back it up though.
Appreciate 0
      04-08-2013, 01:55 PM   #11
avlnch
Lieutenant Colonel
125
Rep
1,622
Posts

Drives: 2013 Individual M5
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance View Post
Yes, I have my suspicions about this also. The guy seems pretty adamant about it but I haven't seen any proof to back it up though.
At the same time, these are very reputable German tuners. If such were true, some of these would be the first to find a work around for the issue / properly dyno the car.

An SIB from BMW about F10 M5 and dynoing (warranty issue?) would help bring validity to the topic. However, I am not going to discredit CL. I defiantly will be waiting for more information.

As more people dyno their cars we will be able to collectively figure this all out. I can't say I would be surprised at all (that the ECU is preventing accurate dyno measurement).. many stock M5's put on a dyno are "showing" much higher performance than BMW indicated (~600hp vs 550hp). Also if 5th gear is 1:1 and US cars cannot do a 5th gear pull due to factory speed limiter, 4th gear pulls could be the single reason for showing higher power than BMW's released figures?

Again, can't discredit anyone. Keeping an open mind about this and waiting for more information to come out.. either from BMW or from members here and their results/experience.
Appreciate 0
      04-08-2013, 01:59 PM   #12
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by avlnch View Post
At the same time, these are very reputable German tuners. If such were true, some of these would be the first to find a work around for the issue / properly dyno the car.

An SIB from BMW about F10 M5 and dynoing (warranty issue?) would help bring validity to the topic. However, I am not going to discredit CL. I defiantly will be waiting for more information.

As more people dyno their cars we will be able to collectively figure this all out. I can't say I would be surprised at all (that the ECU is preventing accurate dyno measurement).. many stock M5's put on a dyno are "showing" much higher performance than BMW indicated (~600hp vs 550hp). Also if 5th gear is 1:1 and US cars cannot do a 5th gear pull due to factory speed limiter, 4th gear pulls could be the single reason for showing higher power than BMW's released figures?

Again, can't discredit anyone. Keeping an open mind about this and waiting for more information to come out.. either from BMW or from members here and their results/experience.
Yep. Important to keep an open mind to this definitely, especially with such a new car.
Appreciate 0
      04-08-2013, 03:16 PM   #13
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

There was someone who wrote an article were they did 9 dyno runs with the M5. The first run gave the highest reading and the next 7 runs gave less and less top end HP. In the end there was a 50hp gap between the highest and lowest run. Then on the 9th run power was higher again and in the middle between the top and low results... This backs up CL's claim about dyno inconsistencies with the M5. But then again, why are more and more aftermarket companies providing dyno runs with comparable base line runs and seemingly consistent power gains and curves? They are dynoing with the hoods open and just a regular fan (based on some of the videos and pictures out there), and yet they get similar and consistent results.

They claimed that the car was delivered to them "by the manufacturer" for this dyno run (indicating that BMW doesn't mind dynoing your car).

And I find it VERY unlikely that BMW has actively programmed a "dyno map" that the ECU looks up to give false HP readings and that this map gives HIGHER hp than under normal use. It would be the other way around if BMW did not want you to dyno the car. They would then make a map that decreases engine power and runs the engine in "safe mode". It doesn't seem likely that the high readings are down to a "dyno safe map" from BMW...
Appreciate 0
      04-09-2013, 04:19 PM   #14
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
There was someone who wrote an article were they did 9 dyno runs with the M5. The first run gave the highest reading and the next 7 runs gave less and less top end HP. In the end there was a 50hp gap between the highest and lowest run. Then on the 9th run power was higher again and in the middle between the top and low results... This backs up CL's claim about dyno inconsistencies with the M5. But then again, why are more and more aftermarket companies providing dyno runs with comparable base line runs and seemingly consistent power gains and curves? They are dynoing with the hoods open and just a regular fan (based on some of the videos and pictures out there), and yet they get similar and consistent results.

They claimed that the car was delivered to them "by the manufacturer" for this dyno run (indicating that BMW doesn't mind dynoing your car).

And I find it VERY unlikely that BMW has actively programmed a "dyno map" that the ECU looks up to give false HP readings and that this map gives HIGHER hp than under normal use. It would be the other way around if BMW did not want you to dyno the car. They would then make a map that decreases engine power and runs the engine in "safe mode". It doesn't seem likely that the high readings are down to a "dyno safe map" from BMW...
Agreed. Logically it doesn't really make sense at all. And I seriously doubt Eisenmann, Remus and Akrapovic are making these up.
Appreciate 0
      04-09-2013, 05:40 PM   #15
avlnch
Lieutenant Colonel
125
Rep
1,622
Posts

Drives: 2013 Individual M5
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
There was someone who wrote an article were they did 9 dyno runs with the M5. The first run gave the highest reading and the next 7 runs gave less and less top end HP. In the end there was a 50hp gap between the highest and lowest run. Then on the 9th run power was higher again and in the middle between the top and low results... This backs up CL's claim about dyno inconsistencies with the M5. But then again, why are more and more aftermarket companies providing dyno runs with comparable base line runs and seemingly consistent power gains and curves? They are dynoing with the hoods open and just a regular fan (based on some of the videos and pictures out there), and yet they get similar and consistent results.

They claimed that the car was delivered to them "by the manufacturer" for this dyno run (indicating that BMW doesn't mind dynoing your car).

And I find it VERY unlikely that BMW has actively programmed a "dyno map" that the ECU looks up to give false HP readings and that this map gives HIGHER hp than under normal use. It would be the other way around if BMW did not want you to dyno the car. They would then make a map that decreases engine power and runs the engine in "safe mode". It doesn't seem likely that the high readings are down to a "dyno safe map" from BMW...
I agree with what your saying.. basically it doesn't logically make any sense..

Which leads me to think, maybe everyone is looking at this all wrong and backwards.

What if the ECU on the F10 M5 has no type of "programmed file" for dynoing. Maybe the ECU is just simply the most advanced one in an M car (and BMW car) to date.. and it is more "adaptive" than prior ECU's. Therefore, when the M5 is placed on a dyno, the ECU realizes that something isn't right, and it therefore tries to adapt to the situation (such as by throttling up and down).

Logically, is BMW and M wanted the car to resist dynoing, it would make much more sense to have the car enter some sort of safe mode as you mentioned.

Maybe Akra and other German tuners have a way to prevent the ECU from attempting to adapt and or perform corrections. Such as they know exactly how to dyno the car.

ColdList mentioned that BMW produced a 20+ page manual on how to dyno the F10 M5 (if I remember correctly). This could further verify my theory that the ECU is not programmed to resist dynoing, but it is a simply a very advanced ECU that monitors and adapts, therefore the corrections it makes when on a dyno result in unreliable results/figures. If that's the case, it could be possible that this is a feature, and one is able to turn it on/off via coding. Or, you cannot code it on/off, but instead dyno it under certian preset conditions to prevent the ECU from making corrections.

It makes more sense? What do you guys think..
__________________
2013 BMW INDIVIDUAL ///M5 {Frozen Black/Amaro Brown/Amaro Brown Alcantara/White Contrast Stitching/Piano Black Trim}
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2013, 11:37 AM   #16
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by avlnch View Post
I agree with what your saying.. basically it doesn't logically make any sense..

Which leads me to think, maybe everyone is looking at this all wrong and backwards.

What if the ECU on the F10 M5 has no type of "programmed file" for dynoing. Maybe the ECU is just simply the most advanced one in an M car (and BMW car) to date.. and it is more "adaptive" than prior ECU's. Therefore, when the M5 is placed on a dyno, the ECU realizes that something isn't right, and it therefore tries to adapt to the situation (such as by throttling up and down).

Logically, is BMW and M wanted the car to resist dynoing, it would make much more sense to have the car enter some sort of safe mode as you mentioned.

Maybe Akra and other German tuners have a way to prevent the ECU from attempting to adapt and or perform corrections. Such as they know exactly how to dyno the car.

ColdList mentioned that BMW produced a 20+ page manual on how to dyno the F10 M5 (if I remember correctly). This could further verify my theory that the ECU is not programmed to resist dynoing, but it is a simply a very advanced ECU that monitors and adapts, therefore the corrections it makes when on a dyno result in unreliable results/figures. If that's the case, it could be possible that this is a feature, and one is able to turn it on/off via coding. Or, you cannot code it on/off, but instead dyno it under certian preset conditions to prevent the ECU from making corrections.

It makes more sense? What do you guys think..
I think thats probably one of the better explanations of the issue. And with the research dollars that Akra, Remus and Eisenmann have at their disposal, I don't doubt that they have a way to dyno the S63tu correctly
Appreciate 0
      05-06-2013, 03:10 PM   #17
richb811
richb811's Avatar
450
Rep
4,592
Posts

Drives: 2020 G20 330i M Sport
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (21)

Appreciate 0
      05-06-2013, 05:09 PM   #18
Tourbillon
Second Lieutenant
Tourbillon's Avatar
United_States
24
Rep
232
Posts

Drives: '14 S550, '13 4S, '11 E550
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Who cares about the power increase, where are the sound clips??
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:25 PM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST