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      06-16-2014, 02:58 PM   #1
SteveSpy
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Braking Distance CCB vs Stock

Can somebody provide these figures? I want to know the difference.
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      06-16-2014, 04:03 PM   #2
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We will have to wait for independent tests for actual results.

But my guess is zero difference
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      06-16-2014, 05:15 PM   #3
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first few tries they'll be the same, but as the things get hotter steel brakes will fade

if you don't track the car and don't live/drive in mountaineous area you probably won't notice the difference
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      06-16-2014, 06:15 PM   #4
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Not tracking mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by AreOut
first few tries they'll be the same, but as the things get hotter steel brakes will fade

if you don't track the car and don't live/drive in mountaineous area you probably won't notice the difference
Because of the significant cost involved, and because I'm not tracking my car I didn't order CCBs. I did, however, want to know if there was enough of a difference in performance from stock brakes to justify the 8k. Obviously, there isn't. On top of that I intend to keep the car for many years and I'm sure that servicing CCBs will be much more expensive than servicing the stock brakes once my warranty is up.
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      06-16-2014, 06:20 PM   #5
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As others have posted, as long as the brakes are strong enough to lock the tires then either option should stop the car in a similar way until the stock brakes start to overheat. Stopping is about traction of the tires once the brakes have enough force to lock them up.

However, throw a set of racing pads on the stock rotors and I'd bet they perform as well (or essentially as well) as the CCB even at track temps. To me, you can go to the track with CCB and not worry about anything. With stock brakes, all you need to do is pull the pins and swap the pads before a track day. I'm probably over simplifying but, to me, CCB simply save you the time to swap pads and fluid as often for the low, low cost of $8,000 They do look cool, however.
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      06-16-2014, 06:41 PM   #6
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CCB rotors will last much longer if the car is on the track every weekend (or abused constantly), in that case it could come out as a cheaper option when you add the numbers

racing pads will do the similar job on the track but they eat up stock rotors even quicker and collect dust so you have to clean the brakes every now and then

the most optimal solution is to use steel rotors and switch racing pads when you go to the track, when(and if) rotors go just order an aftermarket quality BBK for half the price of CCBs and call it a day
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      06-16-2014, 09:03 PM   #7
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I'm not going to lie i am interested in these and i don't track ever. bmw claims lifetime of car is how long they last, thats vague. brembo makes them and claims they last in regular street use conditions 300,000km which is 185k miles roughly. is that the life expectancy of the m4? hope it would last longer than that, although i would never have it near that long. anyways for 8150 extending the warranty for the rotors since they make that claim and is there major selling point would be nice and make me get them for sure.
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      06-16-2014, 09:14 PM   #8
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Threshold braking on a track is about repeatability, confidence, feel and modulation without getting into ABS. Just happy the brakes aren't going to be an issue anymore, steel or CCB.
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      06-16-2014, 09:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AreOut View Post
CCB rotors will last much longer if the car is on the track every weekend (or abused constantly), in that case it could come out as a cheaper option when you add the numbers

racing pads will do the similar job on the track but they eat up stock rotors even quicker and collect dust so you have to clean the brakes every now and then

the most optimal solution is to use steel rotors and switch racing pads when you go to the track, when(and if) rotors go just order an aftermarket quality BBK for half the price of CCBs and call it a day
Have a look at the various threads on CCB. The consensus seems to be that the CCB rotors will not last much longer than the iron ones with heavy track use.

On my E92, I needed to replace 2 sets of front rotors and 1 set of rears in 6 years of use with 16~20 track days per year. Those 3 sets of rotors cost me $2700 total tax in (that is in CAD). CCB in Canada are $9775 tax in. So even if CCBs would have lasted the life of my E92, irons are still way cheaper .
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      06-16-2014, 11:06 PM   #10
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top gear tested the m4 with the ccb and concluded they were the best thing about the car on the road, they disliked them on the track. i don't track so hopefully they would last forever, but if at 51k they magically need replacing i would feel bad for the service advisor that day as i would be pissed!
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      06-16-2014, 11:11 PM   #11
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another thing when u compare to porsche, i wouldn't mind the steel version at all because it still gets a first class caliper but with the m4 its not the same caliper or even size rotor i would be shocked if the tests don't result in shorter stopping distances between the m4/3 with and without the ccb
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      08-19-2014, 01:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Have a look at the various threads on CCB. The consensus seems to be that the CCB rotors will not last much longer than the iron ones with heavy track use.

On my E92, I needed to replace 2 sets of front rotors and 1 set of rears in 6 years of use with 16~20 track days per year. Those 3 sets of rotors cost me $2700 total tax in (that is in CAD). CCB in Canada are $9775 tax in. So even if CCBs would have lasted the life of my E92, irons are still way cheaper .
I am much more interested in seeing actual long-term performance comparisons between CCB and the base steel brakes rather than relying on the "best guesses" from a bunch of forum posters. I'm not saying that there aren't some smart people on this forum, but BMW and other companies have developed CCB's for reasons other than "a cool look."

Plenty of articles have talked about how CCB do offer a longer lifespan and better heat resistance than regular iron rotors. Of course they will cost more $. The real question is by how much will they outlast iron rotors under similar "track" conditions.
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      08-19-2014, 02:07 PM   #13
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How can I resist responding

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSpy View Post
Because of the significant cost involved, and because I'm not tracking my car I didn't order CCBs.
IMHO, if you are not going to track regularly I highly doubt the CCBs will offer you much benefit; save your money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
As others have posted, as long as the brakes are strong enough to lock the tires then either option should stop the car in a similar way until the stock brakes start to overheat. Stopping is about traction of the tires once the brakes have enough force to lock them up.
I am sorry, but you are way oversimplifying the issue here. I can lock up and engage ABS at 20 mph, that is not a measure. Performance braking is an art IMO and it is the very last thing even racers learn how to do well, let alone us regular Joes. It is not just a matter of pushing the middle pedal. So, please don't use that as your comparison variable, for your sake. I am sure you heard it many times before, brakes are not for slowing down, but to manage the weight transfer for most grip available, just like all other controls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogie1 View Post
another thing when u compare to porsche, i wouldn't mind the steel version at all because it still gets a first class caliper but with the m4 its not the same caliper or even size rotor i would be shocked if the tests don't result in shorter stopping distances between the m4/3 with and without the ccb
Not all cast iron brakes are created equal, and what boogie is saying here is absolutely true. CCBs on Porsches offer much less benefit, first because of regular brakes calipers are very capable, and even the iron rotors sizes on GT cars are as big as the CCBs. In addition, in every Porsche you get at least some brake cooling. If I can overcook Porsche brakes in their 3200 lbs cars, I will overcook BMW's 3600 lbs car with irons as well, I have no doubts. And btw, 48% of all 991 GT3s are ordered with PCCBs, contrary to many posts in these forums.

Porsche brakes are legendary for their performance and durability. BMW brakes are legendary for being non-adequate for track use. Although I have no technical knowledge, I am assuming the standard brakes are designed to be a very nice compromise between easy maintenance, street performance and some lapping around. And there is no cooling of any kind to the front or the rear. To compensate, BMW is saying, you dish out a lot of $$$, we'll give you CCBs, they'll perform a little better on the track (p.s. not for racing though )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
I am much more interested in seeing actual long-term performance comparisons between CCB and the base steel brakes rather than relying on the "best guesses" from a bunch of forum posters. I'm not saying that there aren't some smart people on this forum, but BMW and other companies have developed CCB's for reasons other than "a cool look."

Plenty of articles have talked about how CCB do offer a longer lifespan and better heat resistance than regular iron rotors. Of course they will cost more $. The real question is by how much will they outlast iron rotors under similar "track" conditions.
That is the key, right? few stops, all brakes will perform fine mostly, even the stupid floating piston ones. But will they last in a single 30-min session, lap after lap? During an entire season? Multiple years? I opt'd in for the CCBs, despite Karusell's recommendations, because I don't want to experiment with the brakes.
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      08-19-2014, 02:46 PM   #14
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The stock pads that come with the CCB options are not adequate for track use. They'll still fade.

Without proper cooling the CCB rotors will oxidize, so you'll still need proper cooling.
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      08-19-2014, 03:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
but BMW and other companies have developed CCB's for reasons other than "a cool look."
Yes, it's called profit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Plenty of articles have talked about how CCB do offer a longer lifespan and better heat resistance than regular iron rotors. Of course they will cost more $. The real question is by how much will they outlast iron rotors under similar "track" conditions.
I don't know how much you have read from the various threads on the topic, but I never said there are no benefits to CCBs.

CCBs offer lower unsprung mass to improve handling (the greatest benefit IMO). They also offer a small reduction in rotating mass (albeit it is almost negligible). They also offer direct street to track possibility (IMO the iron rotors will need proper track pads to last full sessions while the CCB in stock form will be sufficient).

Based on my experience with my E92, with proper track pads, the iron rotors should last (perform without significant fade) just as long as the CCB. In terms of wear, that still remains to be seen, but as I posted earlier, even if they last 6 years and ~100 track days, the irons are still cheeper. IMO, there is simply no cost benefit to the CCB and the benefits they do offer are not worth the cost TO ME.
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      08-19-2014, 08:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Yes, it's called profit
There's no denying that BMW is trying to profit from M4 sales, but name me a car company that it isn't aiming for a profit.

Also, I think I recall having a similar conversation with you on a similar thread. Though $8k is a lot for a brake package, you're still better off getting BMW's CCB package than you are going with an aftermarket CCB package, which are much more expensive at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I don't know how much you have read from the various threads on the topic, but I never said there are no benefits to CCBs.

CCBs offer lower unsprung mass to improve handling (the greatest benefit IMO). They also offer a small reduction in rotating mass (albeit it is almost negligible). They also offer direct street to track possibility (IMO the iron rotors will need proper track pads to last full sessions while the CCB in stock form will be sufficient).

Based on my experience with my E92, with proper track pads, the iron rotors should last (perform without significant fade) just as long as the CCB. In terms of wear, that still remains to be seen, but as I posted earlier, even if they last 6 years and ~100 track days, the irons are still cheeper. IMO, there is simply no cost benefit to the CCB and the benefits they do offer are not worth the cost TO ME.
Weight reduction seems to be an ancillary benefit, especially if you read what BMW engineers and auto journalists have to say. The real benefit is increased heat resistance, which allows more consistent braking lap after lap.

I think for a club racer, stock iron rotors with upgraded calipers, pads, ect. make sense, because you'll be burning through your brake setup quickly.

For a dedicated daily driver that does occasional track days (maybe 10-12 per year, and that's on the high side), CCB are a logical option. As you said, they allow a car to go straight from the road to the track without having to fiddle with pad changes, ect.

Will BMW's CCB be cheaper for that kind of use? That remains to be seen and depends on how long CCB's last vs base brakes for DD use with occasional track time. Even if they turn out to be more expensive for 6+ years of ownership, that doesn't mean that they aren't worth getting. You have to pay more for better performance...it's all a matter of how much more performance M4 owners want.
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      08-19-2014, 08:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrakBch View Post
The stock pads that come with the CCB options are not adequate for track use. They'll still fade.

Without proper cooling the CCB rotors will oxidize, so you'll still need proper cooling.
And how did you make that determination?

Because I can point you to various reviews where journalists drove a CCB-fitted M3/M4 and noticed no degradation in brake performance over numerous laps.
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      08-19-2014, 08:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
I am sorry, but you are way oversimplifying the issue here. I can lock up and engage ABS at 20 mph, that is not a measure. Performance braking is an art IMO and it is the very last thing even racers learn how to do well, let alone us regular Joes. It is not just a matter of pushing the middle pedal. So, please don't use that as your comparison variable, for your sake. I am sure you heard it many times before, brakes are not for slowing down, but to manage the weight transfer for most grip available, just like all other controls.
I was simplifying because the OP asked a simple question... braking distance of steel vs. CCB.

Threshold braking isn't the question or the answer (and I understand threshold braking and am somewhat proficient at it ). The question is stopping distance. The stopping distance will be the same as it is about the weight of the car, the suspension of the car and the traction of the tires... all being the same... as long as the brakes have sufficient power. The same driver in a CCB car vs. a steel brake car and the braking distance is the same as both sets of brakes have more than sufficient braking force to completely lock the tires (or engage ABS) if the driver wished to do so... therefore, the cars ability to actually stop will be based on weight, suspension and tire grip.

Now if the question was braking distance after 10 hard stops that might be different. If the question was about brake modulation, that might be different. Absolute stopping distance? The same.
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      08-19-2014, 09:11 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I was simplifying because the OP asked a simple question... braking distance of steel vs. CCB.
I appreciate you took the time to better qualify your response for OP's benefit, thank you.

I do follow your posts and I know you do track and have the technical knowledge. That is the reason I picked on your comment. I am sorry if I am being oversensitive on this issue, but when I see comments that start with "the general consensus on this board..." it tickles me

You are one of posters that set that general consensus

All good, thank you
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      08-19-2014, 09:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post

All good, thank you
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      08-20-2014, 12:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
You have to pay more for better performance...it's all a matter of how much more performance M4 owners want.
That is the whole point, I still doubt that the CCB offer that much more track performance over the irons with track pads. And I don't believe a BBK will be needed on the F8X, it sure wasn't on the E9X.

I am not willing to shed close to $10000 Canadian dollars for the improved convenience . But that is just me. If you think it is worth it to you, than you have the option.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 08-20-2014 at 01:09 AM..
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      08-20-2014, 10:49 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
That is the whole point, I still doubt that the CCB offer that much more track performance over the irons with track pads. And I don't believe a BBK will be needed on the F8X, it sure wasn't on the E9X.

I am not willing to shed close to $10000 Canadian dollars for the improved convenience . But that is just me. If you think it is worth it to you, than you have the option.
We still don't have empirical evidence which shows how much more breaking performance/endurance the CCB option offers, or doesn't offer, over the base brakes...that's why I am anxious for new owners/vendors to conduct long-term performance tests.

Also, I didn't own the E9x M3, but I read about plenty of E9x M3 owners who were also track junkies...many of them claimed that the stock brakes were inadequate for long-term tracking. Many of them upgraded their brake systems, either pads and steel lines or a BBK kit.

Though the M3 has always been a street car with track performance in mind, this car has never been a 100% track car out of the box.
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