Theruleslawyer wrote

If you don't you are going to be fighting the factory crossovers. Obviously you need to add a high pass to your door speakers, but you're going to end up with weird compounded slopes, holes, etc. I'd either pass it as-is and let the leave the factory crossovers alone or set your own after combining to full range signal. Are you using the subxpander function? I found that made my system sound weird no matter what I did.

tsv5513

elibol wrote

I've tried tuning input signals and mapping a relatively flat signal to virtual front left/right channels, but I just don't recall getting good results this way. I got the best results from the match 10 by leaving the input signals as-is, and doing a X% / 100-X% split for the underseat virtual channels -- whatever looks the most flat without messing around with EQ per input channel. I haven't had any issue at the crossovers with this approach. The underseat / door speaker crossover does end up being a bit higher freq (like 150-200hz), which might suck if you don't have a trunk sub.

I tried the subxpander and it made my system sound weird as well.

tsv5513 I am assuming you have the HK S688A for the G05. I will send you the tune file I desperately needed when I was in your shoes The EQ will be untuned (this part you should do yourself), but it will be time-aligned with reasonable choice for crossovers and DCM. Everything will be muted for safety. Unmute one channel at a time at min volume and slowly increase volume to make sure everything sounds okay. You'll want to adjust each channel's levels to your liking; the dBs I have set are kind of my preference across the various channels. For instance, my underseats are usually maxed out

If anyone else wants such a tune file, please lmk. I don't have a great way of posting these tune files directly into the thread.

Has anyone considered starting a legit wiki page on all of this information? We could collaborate and produce something nice.

elibol wrote

If anyone else wants such a tune file, please lmk. I don't have a great way of posting these tune files directly into the thread.

Has anyone considered starting a legit wiki page on all of this information? We could collaborate and produce something nice.

Theruleslawyer wrote

Should be able to drop a zip file over here. That's how I did it earlier

I'd be down for a wiki, but where is the question. Its only useful if it can be discovered.

elibol wrote

I've tried tuning input signals and mapping a relatively flat signal to virtual front left/right channels, but I just don't recall getting good results this way. I got the best results from the match 10 by leaving the input signals as-is, and doing a X% / 100-X% split for the underseat virtual channels -- whatever looks the most flat without messing around with EQ per input channel. I haven't had any issue at the crossovers with this approach. The underseat / door speaker crossover does end up being a bit higher freq (like 150-200hz), which might suck if you don't have a trunk sub.

I tried the subxpander and it made my system sound weird as well.

tsv5513 I am assuming you have the HK S688A for the G05. I will send you the tune file I desperately needed when I was in your shoes The EQ will be untuned (this part you should do yourself), but it will be time-aligned with reasonable choice for crossovers and DCM. Everything will be muted for safety. Unmute one channel at a time at min volume and slowly increase volume to make sure everything sounds okay. You'll want to adjust each channel's levels to your liking; the dBs I have set are kind of my preference across the various channels. For instance, my underseats are usually maxed out

If anyone else wants such a tune file, please lmk. I don't have a great way of posting these tune files directly into the thread.

Has anyone considered starting a legit wiki page on all of this information? We could collaborate and produce something nice.

tsv5513 wrote

i'm not sure how you were trying to send the file, but I haven't gotten anything yet. Thanks again!

• I don't think anything is muted (someone else can confirm), so make sure to have your volume all the way down before loading.
• It is time aligned. I don't think this should matter from vehicle to vehicle, but it is certainly worth double checking (if you have nothing better to do).
• The drivers are *not* measurably leveled. The leveling is just how I like things to sound. I level while tuning (to match my house curve), and then level afterward to how I like things to sound. That said, level before you phase align. Leveling after phase alignment can break phase between drivers.
• The underseat virtual channel is set up to be as flat (w.r.t. to achieving a full freq spectrum) as possible without messing around with input EQ. I think it's as good as you can get without messing around with the stock input signals. Keep in mind, changing the input signal impacts all virtual channels that depend on that input signal. I'm not saying that messing around with input signals is a bad thing. I just think that, if you're going to do it, you should know what you're doing
• The input signals to all other virtual channels are unaltered.
• The front/rear/surround speakers all go down to 80hz. This is roughly equivalent to letting the built-in high-pass filter do its job. There is a distinction to be made here between *acoustic* vs. *electrical* crossovers: The built-in crossover is the electric crossover. When you tune a specific channel with a mic, ignore the electrical crossover and look at what the speaker can actually do in RTA. For us (G05 w/ HK S668A), it will drop off well above 80hz. I don't recall exactly the best crossover for HK underseats and door speakers, but I *think* it's around 150hz. That said, the ci5s do in fact go higher (with a mixed front door and underseat speaker mix to virtual underseat like I have in the tune file)
• The tune file assumes a trunk sub. If you do have a trunk sub, retune the phase accordingly. If you don't have a trunk sub, ignore the sub channel and set your underseats to go all the way down to 20hz (or bypass). With no trunk sub, you'll want your underseats going as low as they can go. Also I want to echo the order of upgrades Theruleslawyer originally laid out: DSP first, then trunk, then door speakers, then underseats. That is also IMO the most impactful order of upgrades.
• The underseat gain (in DCM) is at its lowest level. I honestly can't remember whether this was the correct setting for the HK underseats or whether I did this after installing the ci5s. Just something to keep in mind. That said, I'm pretty sure this setup is going to max out the HK underseats with minimal distortion at higher volumes, so I don't think it's a good idea to crank the gain any further. If you do increase gain, make sure to do it properly (with volume maxed and speakers muted). It's really easy to push the HKs to distortion.
• The EQ per channel are all reset. You'll need a decent mic to tune. I used to use a crappy mic (Dayton Audio iMM-6), but it wasn't great at picking up sounds without cranking both the mic and the volume to the max. I have had an easier time tuning with the UMIK-1. I got the Dayton after watching Raw-Cat's review of a bunch of mics and claiming they are all equivalent, but I did not experience that to be the case in practice. That said, I find about 80% of what that dude says to be 100% accurate (60% of the time, it works every time). He is 100% out to help us DIYers.

tsv5513

elibol wrote

Here is the tune file. Here are some notes to keep in mind:

• I don't think anything is muted (someone else can confirm), so make sure to have your volume all the way down before loading.
• It is time aligned. I don't think this should matter from vehicle to vehicle, but it is certainly worth double checking (if you have nothing better to do).
• The drivers are *not* measurably leveled. The leveling is just how I like things to sound. I level while tuning (to match my house curve), and then level afterward to how I like things to sound. That said, level before you phase align. Leveling after phase alignment can break phase between drivers.
• The underseat virtual channel is set up to be as flat (w.r.t. to achieving a full freq spectrum) as possible without messing around with input EQ. I think it's as good as you can get without messing around with the stock input signals. Keep in mind, changing the input signal impacts all virtual channels that depend on that input signal. I'm not saying that messing around with input signals is a bad thing. I just think that, if you're going to do it, you should know what you're doing
• The input signals to all other virtual channels are unaltered.
• The front/rear/surround speakers all go down to 80hz. This is roughly equivalent to letting the built-in high-pass filter do its job. There is a distinction to be made here between *acoustic* vs. *electrical* crossovers: The built-in crossover is the electric crossover. When you tune a specific channel with a mic, ignore the electrical crossover and look at what the speaker can actually do in RTA. For us (G05 w/ HK S668A), it will drop off well above 80hz. I don't recall exactly the best crossover for HK underseats and door speakers, but I *think* it's around 150hz. That said, the ci5s do in fact go higher (with a mixed front door and underseat speaker mix to virtual underseat like I have in the tune file)
• The tune file assumes a trunk sub. If you do have a trunk sub, retune the phase accordingly. If you don't have a trunk sub, ignore the sub channel and set your underseats to go all the way down to 20hz (or bypass). With no trunk sub, you'll want your underseats going as low as they can go. Also I want to echo the order of upgrades Theruleslawyer originally laid out: DSP first, then trunk, then door speakers, then underseats. That is also IMO the most impactful order of upgrades.
• The underseat gain (in DCM) is at its lowest level. I honestly can't remember whether this was the correct setting for the HK underseats or whether I did this after installing the ci5s. Just something to keep in mind. That said, I'm pretty sure this setup is going to max out the HK underseats with minimal distortion at higher volumes, so I don't think it's a good idea to crank the gain any further. If you do increase gain, make sure to do it properly (with volume maxed and speakers muted). It's really easy to push the HKs to distortion.
• The EQ per channel are all reset. You'll need a decent mic to tune. I used to use a crappy mic (Dayton Audio iMM-6), but it wasn't great at picking up sounds without cranking both the mic and the volume to the max. I have had an easier time tuning with the UMIK-1. I got the Dayton after watching Raw-Cat's review of a bunch of mics and claiming they are all equivalent, but I did not experience that to be the case in practice. That said, I find about 80% of what that dude says to be 100% accurate (60% of the time, it works every time). He is 100% out to help us DIYers.

tsv5513 specifically for you, I don't have the MEC. I believe that's for center channel. My tune file assumes no MEC (the center channel is mixed left/right with "true center" or whatever they call it enabled in DCM). I have found the center channel is nice to mess around with *after* you have figured out everything else, but perhaps this may be different with the MEC.

Anyway, hope this is helpful. If it's not working out for you then just do your own thing and continue asking questions. It's a fun and rewarding process.

tsv5513 wrote

Awesome, thank you! I will give this a try tonight when I get home. Thanks for the heads up on the MEC.

elibol wrote

I forgot to mention: the DCM is configured to have digital signal in take over if it detects input. The digital -> virtual mapping is set up to do phase alignment with a USB mic. Plenty of tutorials on this.

tsv5513 wrote

When removing the factory subs is a heat gun necessary or is a high quality hair dryer enough to loosen the glue?

Theruleslawyer wrote

I'd be down for a wiki, but where is the question. Its only useful if it can be discovered.

elibol wrote

[*] It is time aligned. I don't think this should matter from vehicle to vehicle, but it is certainly worth double checking (if you have nothing better to do).

elibol wrote

[*] The drivers are *not* measurably leveled. The leveling is just how I like things to sound. I level while tuning (to match my house curve), and then level afterward to how I like things to sound. That said, level before you phase align. Leveling after phase alignment can break phase between drivers.

elibol wrote

[*] The front/rear/surround speakers all go down to 80hz. This is roughly equivalent to letting the built-in high-pass filter do its job. There is a distinction to be made here between *acoustic* vs. *electrical* crossovers: The built-in crossover is the electric crossover. When you tune a specific channel with a mic, ignore the electrical crossover and look at what the speaker can actually do in RTA. For us (G05 w/ HK S668A), it will drop off well above 80hz. I don't recall exactly the best crossover for HK underseats and door speakers, but I *think* it's around 150hz.

elibol wrote

That said, the ci5s do in fact go higher (with a mixed front door and underseat speaker mix to virtual underseat like I have in the tune file)

elibol wrote

Here is the tune file. Here are some notes to keep in mind:

• I don't think anything is muted (someone else can confirm), so make sure to have your volume all the way down before loading.
• It is time aligned. I don't think this should matter from vehicle to vehicle, but it is certainly worth double checking (if you have nothing better to do).
• The drivers are *not* measurably leveled. The leveling is just how I like things to sound. I level while tuning (to match my house curve), and then level afterward to how I like things to sound. That said, level before you phase align. Leveling after phase alignment can break phase between drivers.
• The underseat virtual channel is set up to be as flat (w.r.t. to achieving a full freq spectrum) as possible without messing around with input EQ. I think it's as good as you can get without messing around with the stock input signals. Keep in mind, changing the input signal impacts all virtual channels that depend on that input signal. I'm not saying that messing around with input signals is a bad thing. I just think that, if you're going to do it, you should know what you're doing
• The input signals to all other virtual channels are unaltered.
• The front/rear/surround speakers all go down to 80hz. This is roughly equivalent to letting the built-in high-pass filter do its job. There is a distinction to be made here between *acoustic* vs. *electrical* crossovers: The built-in crossover is the electric crossover. When you tune a specific channel with a mic, ignore the electrical crossover and look at what the speaker can actually do in RTA. For us (G05 w/ HK S668A), it will drop off well above 80hz. I don't recall exactly the best crossover for HK underseats and door speakers, but I *think* it's around 150hz. That said, the ci5s do in fact go higher (with a mixed front door and underseat speaker mix to virtual underseat like I have in the tune file)
• The tune file assumes a trunk sub. If you do have a trunk sub, retune the phase accordingly. If you don't have a trunk sub, ignore the sub channel and set your underseats to go all the way down to 20hz (or bypass). With no trunk sub, you'll want your underseats going as low as they can go. Also I want to echo the order of upgrades Theruleslawyer originally laid out: DSP first, then trunk, then door speakers, then underseats. That is also IMO the most impactful order of upgrades.
• The underseat gain (in DCM) is at its lowest level. I honestly can't remember whether this was the correct setting for the HK underseats or whether I did this after installing the ci5s. Just something to keep in mind. That said, I'm pretty sure this setup is going to max out the HK underseats with minimal distortion at higher volumes, so I don't think it's a good idea to crank the gain any further. If you do increase gain, make sure to do it properly (with volume maxed and speakers muted). It's really easy to push the HKs to distortion.
• The EQ per channel are all reset. You'll need a decent mic to tune. I used to use a crappy mic (Dayton Audio iMM-6), but it wasn't great at picking up sounds without cranking both the mic and the volume to the max. I have had an easier time tuning with the UMIK-1. I got the Dayton after watching Raw-Cat's review of a bunch of mics and claiming they are all equivalent, but I did not experience that to be the case in practice. That said, I find about 80% of what that dude says to be 100% accurate (60% of the time, it works every time). He is 100% out to help us DIYers.

tsv5513 specifically for you, I don't have the MEC. I believe that's for center channel. My tune file assumes no MEC (the center channel is mixed left/right with "true center" or whatever they call it enabled in DCM). I have found the center channel is nice to mess around with *after* you have figured out everything else, but perhaps this may be different with the MEC.

Anyway, hope this is helpful. If it's not working out for you then just do your own thing and continue asking questions. It's a fun and rewarding process.

dombi

dombi wrote

Time alignment in your file:
- Your Doors are in the 12-14ms range
- Sub around 15ms
- Woofers at 2ms...

I think your TA is off and phases are probably off too.
How did you do TA?

dombi wrote

Levels are important. They have a big effect on stage.
Check Left - Right levels, measured from your listening position.

This is just as important as TA.

dombi wrote

Can you post these measurements?
Would like to see them for the ci5's.

dombi wrote

Great work. Just a few tips, which you can use if you want.

dombi wrote

On the Center channel, the output gain is set to -25dB.
It is basically disabled. Do you have any sound coming out of it?
I have mine set up the same: Center = Front L + Front R AND RealCenter enabled.

dombi wrote

Your Woofers (underseats) have HP40 / LP150... Sub has LP 40.
Have you measured/verified their responses? With the crossovers above, do they actually follow the curve you want?

dombi wrote

Also, on the Sub (output channel K) you are summing the input: Front L+R + Woofers L+R.
But the Sub plays well below the Fronts. The Front L+R signal won't do much for the Sub except bring it's level down.

elibol wrote

Thanks for your input, dombi. Please see answers + more questions below.



I aligned the rising curve of each channel's impulse response. It's not as easy to do between drivers with different freq response. For those, I find that aligning their peaks makes it easier to put them in phase. Do you see any issues?


The under/sub looks and sounds in phase:


The sub/front were hard to phase align. I only managed to get them aligned at their (acoustic) crossover (~200hz):




Could you explain how this impacts stage? I thought stage was mainly a matter of time alignment and phase. I end up having to mess around with levels when I'm matching my house curve, which is based on raw cat's house curve (steep increase below ~200hz). The sub/underseat has 40hz crossover, and underseat/front has 200hz crossover:




This is with ci5 installed in the driver side underseat, and the HK in the passenger side underseat location. The HK installed in the driver side (left) underseat has that same dip between 50-70hz (nothing to do with ci5s). It's not exactly apples to apples, but I wanted to make sure the dB was equivalent. The 50/50 is a 50/50 split between front input signals and underseat input signals (without any EQ on any input signals). I did this before deciding to try and approximate a full spectrum signal for the underseats / sub by a more balanced mixture of front/sub input signals.




Thanks! I am always open to feedback / tips. Thanks for providing them



I do have the dB set quite low for center. I just find it draws the stage away from driver/passenger side if it's too loud.



For the underseat / sub crossover, the electrical crossover is equivalent to acoustic. They are in phase at 40hz: SPL for underseats + sub is well above well above the individual SPLs (see above plot showing front / under / sub).



I find sending the exact 50/50 mix of signals to the sub which are sent to the underseats helps with phase aligning sub and underseats. I can get perfect phase alignment up to ~100hz, well after the sub drops off (see above). My sub is very well powered. I haven't had any issue with dB.

If you're up for it, I'm sure all of us would be curious to see your tune file. You also have the G05 HK S688A if I'm not mistaken, right?

tsv5513 wrote

Wow, that was a hell of an explanation! Do you guys feel like REW is needed vs just using PC tools from AF?

tsv5513 wrote

Do you need to disconnect both batteries when installing an amp in the X5?

elibol wrote

Okay so, if you're just installing the match 10 DSP for the G05 with HK S688A, then you will need to disconnect the primary battery, if for no other reason than to draw power from the battery.

When I hooked up the match 10 DSP, I disconnected just the battery I was connecting to. It's the (maybe not so obvious) primary battery. It is in the trunk, right in the middle for the G05. I didn't do anything with the battery off to the right.

Removing the connector to your (primary) battery will cut off all power to your car. I have experienced some weird issues after doing this (such as trunk not closing, but it is temporary), but this is what you need to do from both a safety point-of-view and also a "there's literally no other way to do it" POV. Once you have your amp hooked up, you should reconnect the car to battery connector. That's it.

That said, the primary safety-related thing to learn about is short circuits and why you need a fuse on the positive cable going from your battery to your amp. You should definitely spend a bit of time on safety. You want to make sure that if something goes wrong while you're driving, the only thing that happens is your speakers cut out (vs. your car exploding).

Others should chime in if there's anything I've missed. This is an important topic.

tsv5513 wrote

I ask this because after I installed my Match UP10DSP and a second sub/amp I ended up having to take my BMW to the dealership and have it reprogrammed because of all the crazy shit that happened. My parking assist, stability control, and TPMS sensors stopped working. My check engine light came on and the idrive screen went to no signal as well as doors not auto locking. These would all happened intermittently. Before going to the dealership I removed all the amps and wiring because I was concerned that I would have voided my warranty.

I only disconnected the battery in the trunk like you mentioned and I am not aware of anything abnormal that occurred while connecting the amps. They both worked fine when the system was stable enough to turn music on from the idrive screen. This is the first modern car I've done an amp install in and I was not sure about how to handle multiple batteries.

Before connecting everything back I want to make sure I do it right. I basically followed the bimmertech video on the alpha one in a g05 and used the same ground they showed for both amps. I also used the positive post on the main battery for both amps. Both amp runs had fuses 50A for the Match Up 10 and 80A for the Zapco 1350xm ii and none of them popped.