[perikifi]

Why is it that when TurtleBoy argues through logic that 1) wrinkles must be by design, many people infer that 2) he thinks there was a big enough problem to create a (wrinkly) solution, 3) he thinks wrinkles are a good solution to the problem and 4) he must really like inconsistent-looking seats — and then trash him.

I have not heard him say 1-2-3-4, only 1, and some thoughts about a possible 2. If you don’t like your wrinkles, that’s not his fault!

Now I would much rather have my back seats without the small wrinkles they have. And having some understanding of Bavarian thinking I can say, as my opinion, that this design would never fly in a Bavarian factory. Ordnung muss sein. But I still believe the wrinkles are by design — just bad design.

[LexxM3]

Interesting. So let's see if we can come to a point where we start to get along again. Is it possible for us to agree that regardless of whether the inconsistent wrinkles are by design or by manufacturing defect, regardless of that, they are a Bad Thing™ AKA a defect (design or manufacturing, doesn't matter)?

Cause if that's what we're arguing about, it is mostly semantics and we should all instead be friends and just continue to properly gang up on BMW.

[coolerbythelake]

I remember being carted around to hockey practice (and anywhere else for that matter) in the family Town & Country as a kid. I always liked cars and remember thinking "damn how could anything be more luxurious than this?"

I see the pictures now and can only laugh. Can we at least all agree that our seats could always be worse? I just can't with those upper door panels

[TurtleBoy]

As perikifi stated very well, thanks for that, I have only been addressing that the wrinkles were there intentionally and definitely haven't expressed my like/dislike of them.

Since I have some time to kill waiting for the A Christmas Story marathon to start, I might as well give my opinion on the entire Wrinklegate situation.

I would assume everyone here is on the same page but just in case, "by design" means intentional, according to plan, deliberate, etc.

Obviously I think the seats are intentionally not smooth and have wrinkles. Most likely that is due to the designers trying to "loosen up" the leather surface to provide a cushier seating surface. So in this case the "by design" would be due to the design.

I don't buy into the theory that it is less expensive to produce the wrinkled seats in fact I believe it is more expensive to do so understanding that the process of creating the wrinkles involves more labor. I think the reason many people mention this is because Lear, who used to supply the seats, didn't get awarded the contract to produce the seats for the G05 and mentioned that they couldn't produce the seats at the price BMW wanted to pay.

If my understanding of that is wrong and somehow it is less expensive to create seats with wrinkles and BMW decided that was the way to go, then the "by design" would be cost savings.

As far as the wrinkles themselves go, we have seen a wide wrinkle range from barely existing to what could be a model of the Great Sand Dunes. Thankfully a very large percentage of them are at the smaller end of the scale. Besides the size of the wrinkles another difference we see between seats is the pattern of the wrinkling. While many factors such as the tanning/dyeing process, humidity, handling, etc. can effect leather and thus the wrinkles, I believe the biggest influence in them in this case is the people, and process, manufacturing the seats.

For the overwhelming majority of the seats that I have seen, I would consider them very acceptable as far as the look of them goes. While there may be some difference in the pattern between left and right, overall the wrinkles do not detract from the look of the X5. What I can’t understand though is how the bad seats are getting through QC at Magna and more importantly at BMW. In my opinion there is a huge breakdown somewhere in the process and it is disappointing to me that a company that is supposedly so anal about things allows something so visible to be released to customers. I periodically check out pictures of the seats on various dealer sites and I do believe they are making strides in trying to control what passes QC but they aren’t there yet according to what my standards would be.

If anyone is wondering about my seats, I have Vernasca and the wrinkles are at the low end of the spectrum. When I started posting in this thread almost a year ago, I mentioned something to my wife about the wrinkles and her response was “what wrinkles?”. They do exist but are not very obvious or obtrusive.

Finally, if I was the head of design for the X5 and my seat designer brought me the wrinkles I would have handed him or her an iron and said take them out. I would like to see a seat with the comfort they currently have but sans wrinkles. In 1969 we sent men to the moon, I have to believe that in 2019 we can create very comfortable seats with leather as soft and smooth as a baby’s butt.

Stepping off the soapbox now and I want to wish everyone, even the handful or so in the “not by design” camp, a very Safe and Happy Holiday Season.

Merry/Happy Christmas
Happy Hanukkah
Frohe Weihnachten
Hyvää joulua
Vrolijk Kerstfeest
Feliz Navidad
Wesołych Świąt
Chag Molad Sameach
Buon Natale
Kala Christouyenna
Joyeux Noël
Happy Festivus

[LexxM3]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

As perikifi stated very well, thanks for that, I have only been addressing that the wrinkles were there intentionally and definitely haven't expressed my like/dislike of them.

Since I have some time to kill waiting for the A Christmas Story marathon to start, I might as well give my opinion on the entire Wrinklegate situation.

I would assume everyone here is on the same page but just in case, "by design" means intentional, according to plan, deliberate, etc.

Obviously I think the seats are intentionally not smooth and have wrinkles. Most likely that is due to the designers trying to "loosen up" the leather surface to provide a cushier seating surface. So in this case the "by design" would be due to the design.

I don't buy into the theory that it is less expensive to produce the wrinkled seats in fact I believe it is more expensive to do so understanding that the process of creating the wrinkles involves more labor. I think the reason many people mention this is because Lear, who used to supply the seats, didn't get awarded the contract to produce the seats for the G05 and mentioned that they couldn't produce the seats at the price BMW wanted to pay.

If my understanding of that is wrong and somehow it is less expensive to create seats with wrinkles and BMW decided that was the way to go, then the "by design" would be cost savings.

As far as the wrinkles themselves go, we have seen a wide wrinkle range from barely existing to what could be a model of the Great Sand Dunes. Thankfully a very large percentage of them are at the smaller end of the scale. Besides the size of the wrinkles another difference we see between seats is the pattern of the wrinkling. While many factors such as the tanning/dyeing process, humidity, handling, etc. can effect leather and thus the wrinkles, I believe the biggest influence in them in this case is the people, and process, manufacturing the seats.

For the overwhelming majority of the seats that I have seen, I would consider them very acceptable as far as the look of them goes. While there may be some difference in the pattern between left and right, overall the wrinkles do not detract from the look of the X5. What I can't understand though is how the bad seats are getting through QC at Magna and more importantly at BMW. In my opinion there is a huge breakdown somewhere in the process and it is disappointing to me that a company that is supposedly so anal about things allows something so visible to be released to customers. I periodically check out pictures of the seats on various dealer sites and I do believe they are making strides in trying to control what passes QC but they aren't there yet according to what my standards would be.

If anyone is wondering about my seats, I have Vernasca and the wrinkles are at the low end of the spectrum. When I started posting in this thread almost a year ago, I mentioned something to my wife about the wrinkles and her response was "what wrinkles?". They do exist but are not very obvious or obtrusive.

Finally, if I was the head of design for the X5 and my seat designer brought me the wrinkles I would have handed him or her an iron and said take them out. I would like to see a seat with the comfort they currently have but sans wrinkles. In 1969 we sent men to the moon, I have to believe that in 2019 we can create very comfortable seats with leather as soft and smooth as a baby's butt.

Stepping off the soapbox now and I want to wish everyone, even the handful or so in the "not by design" camp, a very Safe and Happy Holiday Season.

Merry/Happy Christmas
Happy Hanukkah
Frohe Weihnachten
Hyvää joulua
Vrolijk Kerstfeest
Feliz Navidad
Wesołych Świąt
Chag Molad Sameach
Buon Natale
Kala Christouyenna
Joyeux Noël
Happy Festivus

Nice. But I think you're right about intent. It's a trend: https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...b-52-wrinkles/

[mitch57]

This Thread will never die....

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

I'd like to file a complaint - BMW's Wrinkly Seat Solution has wrinkles!

Dear Mr. Paladin1, here at BMW, we frown upon complaints and therefore have revised our wrinkly seat solution to be more in line with your expectations. Unfortunately, we had to adjust the price accordingly. We trust you will find this satisfactory.

.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by Marty in Bgm

Dear Mr. Paladin1, here at BMW, we frown upon complaints and therefore have revised our wrinkly seat solution to be more in line with your expectations. Unfortunately, we had to adjust the price accordingly. We trust you will find this satisfactory.

.

Much better! But now my passengers complain they get splinters in their sitzplatz - is there a removal tool sold as an accessory? Thank you for listening to your customers!

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

Much better! But now my passengers complain they get splinters in their sitzplatz - is there a removal tool sold as an accessory? Thank you for listening to your customers!

Yes of course, you will find such a tool in the storage compartment under the cargo floor. You can purchase extras in the BMW online store. und denken Sie daran, wir sind für Sie da

.

[TJ_BMW]

Originally Posted by Marty in Bgm

Dear Mr. Paladin1, here at BMW, we frown upon complaints and therefore have revised our wrinkly seat solution to be more in line with your expectations. Unfortunately, we had to adjust the price accordingly. We trust you will find this satisfactory.

.

I have a complaint. Would BMW be able to match the wood finish to the one seen on the doorhandles?

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by Marty in Bgm

Yes of course, you will find such a tool in the storage compartment under the cargo floor. You can purchase extras in the BMW online store. und denken Sie daran, wir sind für Sie da

.

Das macht meinen Sitz weh, wenn ich es mir nur ansehe! Ach!

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by TJ_BMW

I have a complaint. Would BMW be able to match the wood finish to the one seen on the doorhandles?

Yes, we can in fact replace the wood finish doorhandles with plywood.

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

Das macht meinen Sitz weh, wenn ich es mir nur ansehe! Ach!

Yes, but just think, it won't hurt your eyes - the wrinkles are gone. Everything's a trade off

[Wild Blue]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

Much better! But now my passengers complain they get splinters in their sitzplatz - is there a removal tool sold as an accessory? Thank you for listening to your customers!

Careful, you're going to create a new complaint thread, with the same clowns here arguing, "well, logically, BMW clearly must be intentionally inserting splinters into your Fahrfegpoopin' to enhance your comfort and health, because... ummm.... science."

[teefive]

Saw this as a TSB. Anyone know what it says?

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by teefive

Saw this as a TSB. Anyone know what it says?

Probably contains something similar to tisinfo.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/g...-seat/ByCpmmNy

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Probably contains something similar to tisinfo.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/g...-seat/ByCpmmNy

Interesting - it looked like almost no defect in the leather was warrantable (some exceptions), I'm guessing because of the multiple ways leather could be damaged by the customer, seemingly discounting the possibility of defective material or finishing. Also interesting the use of "effected" vs "affected," plus some unusual sentence construction, leading me to believe it's a translation from presumably the German.

[BMPHIL]

It will probably say:

"Ignore what the customer says and tell them it is how the seats have been designed and is for their comfort. If they disagree with what you say tell them that Turtle boy agrees with what you say so thats it".

[X6M50i]

I've seen a bunch "perfect" rear seats. Here is one, almost press release quality "perfect" eh!

Starting at 1:38, enjoy at your own risks!

Defect, confirmed then?

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by X6M50i

I've seen a bunch "perfect" rear seats. Here is one, almost press release quality "perfect" eh!

Starting at 1:38, enjoy at your own risks!


Defect, confirmed then?

That is an X6 and they by and large do not have the wrinkles or at least not in the pattern shown in the X5.

I guess where it could be relevant is that it would be another argument (not that any others are needed since no one really believes they are a defect but rather just like to keep this thread going) for the wrinkles in the X5 to be by design. If the seats were supposed to be the same it would be impossible for them to make the X5's all bad and the X6's all fine.

[karateboi87]

This thread truly never dies... personally I'm indifferent and don't care which side "wins" the debate. Hopefully I don't jinx myself and get a super wrinkled rear seat in February.

What I will say is, until BMW officially confirms or denies (which I don't think they ever will), or someone who actually works in the product team for X5 (or maybe another line) spills the beans, we will never know. Even if 2021 vehicles don't have wrinkles, both sides can still debate about whether it was an intentional change.

[Ninefourteener]

I don't necessarily think the wrinkles look "bad" so long as they aren't excessive. I wouldn't refuse a car because of it.

But, I absolutely 100% do NOT believe it is "intentional". All their "clean-seated" promotional photos and videos, the online builder, and the fact that many dealerships have acknowledged it????

Nope.... "something" in their manufacturing process is causing it.