[SHARMAATL]

I just came across this video Tesla posted a couple of months ago. If this is the self-driving tech that Tesla is cooking up, should BMW's engineers ask for an internship or just go back to school?

Maybe BMW is waiting on the right legislation to be passed before implementing it, but it seems with OTA capability, they should've just created this tech already, similar to the laser lights in the US.

Wondering why $100K+ vehicles made by BMW can't compete with the tech of a $40K Tesla.

[frankchn]

That video is really more of a tech demo/marketing video rather than what you can get if you buy a Tesla today.

There are lots of nice videos of autonomous driving happening. For instance, Waymo has one with no one in the driver's seat:

I'll reserve judgment until I can buy one of these things off the lot.

[TJ_BMW]

I saw this video a while back, but this is in Australia where the driving assistance is toned down significantly.

The Model 3 wasn't fully equiped, but its still a comparison.

[frankchn]

I think the Tesla system works well on divided highways and such, but it still exhibits edge-case bad behavior such as mid-recognizing a Burger King sign for a stop sign: https://jalopnik.com/burger-king-is-...-to-1844165194

[JonnyCrash]

Self-driving is Tesla’s whole thing. They have invested way more in it than any other manufacturer. BMW would need to add lidar and a bunch of other components to the car in order to get that level of autonomy. There's a reason Tesla charges almost $10k extra for that capability. A LOT of R&D went into it. And even so, news reports show it is still nowhere near perfect.

BMW makes cars, not technology. That it has to buy from others when it is ready. It’s the ultimate driving machine, Not the ultimate machine that drives.

[edtreo]

Tesla has invested in their neural network which is a very different approach to most car makers. They excel in their frequent OTA update and hardware update that is unheard of in this industry.

[SHARMAATL]

Originally Posted by JonnyCrash

Self-driving is Tesla’s whole thing. They have invested way more in it than any other manufacturer. BMW would need to add lidar and a bunch of other components to the car in order to get that level of autonomy. There's a reason Tesla charges almost $10k extra for that capability. A LOT of R&D went into it. And even so, news reports show it is still nowhere near perfect.

BMW makes cars, not technology. That it has to buy from others when it is ready. It’s the ultimate driving machine, Not the ultimate machine that drives.

I'm not really a big Tesla guy, and I'm obviously more of a BMW guy as I got one.

However, I would make the point that self driving AND performance are Tesla's whole thing. A Model 3 Performance soundly beats an equally priced M3. There's obviously repeatability and emotional sensation that BMW has over the Tesla, and we will need to see what the new M3 and it's pig nose bring to the table.

Also, on a total aside, I would argue that Porsche is more of the ultimate driving machine. They just lease so poorly compared to BMW that it's hard not to go with BMW.

[JonnyCrash]

Originally Posted by SHARMAATL

I'm not really a big Tesla guy, and I'm obviously more of a BMW guy as I got one.

However, I would make the point that self driving AND performance are Tesla's whole thing. A Model 3 Performance soundly beats an equally priced M3. There's obviously repeatability and emotional sensation that BMW has over the Tesla, and we will need to see what the new M3 and it's pig nose bring to the table.

Also, on a total aside, I would argue that Porsche is more of the ultimate driving machine. They just lease so poorly compared to BMW that it's hard not to go with BMW.

I don't want to get into debates over which cars are best, but I take your point. The performance of Tesla's higher end packages is, to borrow their term, ludicrous. At least in acceleration. I've never tested the handling of one, and while I hear it is good I would have to check it out for myself before concurring. Someday I hope to... but to be fair, I live in Canada where we drive forever to get between urban centres, and the only use case I have for an electric car is literally commuting to/from work. There is no way to take one on an extended road trip, and therefore they do not have a car that meets my needs: no electric car company does.

I agree with you completely in regards to Porsche. I have owned a 911 and will own one again when the kids are bigger. Other cars are great, and I nearly got the e46 M3 back in '02... but the Porsche was just a Porsche, and I went that way instead. Unfortunately, again, Porsche has a niche where they excel, and it is the smaller vehicles. The Cayennes and Macans are AMAZING vehicles, but they are basically trying to be large sports cars (and succeeding). This means that they handle extremely well and are very fast, but they are also compromised in terms of luggage space and fuel efficiency (except for the e-hybrids). They are also far more expensive than the X5 for a comparable vehicle. So this time I've gone BMW and feel that it is the right decision!

If only I had enough money and space in the garage for one of each of these, though...

[SHARMAATL]

Originally Posted by JonnyCrash

I don't want to get into debates over which cars are best, but I take your point. The performance of Tesla's higher end packages is, to borrow their term, ludicrous. At least in acceleration. I've never tested the handling of one, and while I hear it is good I would have to check it out for myself before concurring. Someday I hope to... but to be fair, I live in Canada where we drive forever to get between urban centres, and the only use case I have for an electric car is literally commuting to/from work. There is no way to take one on an extended road trip, and therefore they do not have a car that meets my needs: no electric car company does.

I agree with you completely in regards to Porsche. I have owned a 911 and will own one again when the kids are bigger. Other cars are great, and I nearly got the e46 M3 back in '02... but the Porsche was just a Porsche, and I went that way instead. Unfortunately, again, Porsche has a niche where they excel, and it is the smaller vehicles. The Cayennes and Macans are AMAZING vehicles, but they are basically trying to be large sports cars (and succeeding). This means that they handle extremely well and are very fast, but they are also compromised in terms of luggage space and fuel efficiency (except for the e-hybrids). They are also far more expensive than the X5 for a comparable vehicle. So this time I've gone BMW and feel that it is the right decision!

If only I had enough money and space in the garage for one of each of these, though...

Very fair points. I live in the South and my parents live two states away. I looked into a Model X and it's almost impossible to make the trip to visit, as the supercharger (and general electric charger) network is poor at best. Thus, that vehicle is pretty much off the shopping list completely.

Agree on Porsche. Would love to have a 911 GTS. At the same price of an M8 Comp, the M8 leases at around $900 less per month. Incredible lease difference. Looked into the Cayenne base model and S when getting my X5, and the base (which is slower than the X5) came out to $18K more with comparable options, while the S was almost $30K more. Doesn't make sense to me.

My overall point, though a bit hyperbolic in my original post, is that BMW is lagging behind Tesla in autonomous driving tech and electric tech. This is most apparent in the poor Over-the-air updating when compared to the incredible updates Tesla pushes out seemingly monthly. It's taken a year of having my X5 to get one OTA update that only now allows me to pay more money to use my cameras to record. That's ridiculous.

[alewifebp]

Tesla has adopted the Agile development method to the car. With Agile, it's assumed you can produce buggy software, since you can easily get the next iteration out, especially with OTA. However, there is a risk when you are deploying self driving tech over other types of tech. You can't have it fail, but Tesla is willing to take the risk. The Germans are not.

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by JonnyCrash

I don't want to get into debates over which cars are best, but I take your point. The performance of Tesla's higher end packages is, to borrow their term, ludicrous. At least in acceleration. I've never tested the handling of one, and while I hear it is good I would have to check it out for myself before concurring. Someday I hope to... but to be fair, I live in Canada where we drive forever to get between urban centres, and the only use case I have for an electric car is literally commuting to/from work. There is no way to take one on an extended road trip, and therefore they do not have a car that meets my needs: no electric car company does.

I agree with you completely in regards to Porsche. I have owned a 911 and will own one again when the kids are bigger. Other cars are great, and I nearly got the e46 M3 back in '02... but the Porsche was just a Porsche, and I went that way instead. Unfortunately, again, Porsche has a niche where they excel, and it is the smaller vehicles. The Cayennes and Macans are AMAZING vehicles, but they are basically trying to be large sports cars (and succeeding). This means that they handle extremely well and are very fast, but they are also compromised in terms of luggage space and fuel efficiency (except for the e-hybrids). They are also far more expensive than the X5 for a comparable vehicle. So this time I've gone BMW and feel that it is the right decision!

If only I had enough money and space in the garage for one of each of these, though...

Agreed. But I believe Porsche fills a major gap between luxury and exotic car brands.

For example,

BMW, Mercedes, Audi, average price range is 40-120k (for the majority of their models) Before discounts.

Porsche: 60-250k (excluding the GT2RS).

Ferrari, Lamborghini, mclaren, etc average pricing is 260-700k. RARELY discounted.

Notice Porsche's pricing is the median. That's why they're so popular. You're stepping into super car territory without paying super car prices and cost of maintenance/insurance. They may not perform or feel as great as a 300k huracan or 488, but they're pretty damn close for the overall cost and daily drivability.

I still thought a cayenne was overpriced which is why I went with the X5 instead lol. But objectively speaking, I think that's Porsche's pricing strategy/market.

Tesla is an entirely different beast. Musk might be neurotic sometimes but he's definitely a visionary. He's the Steve Jobs of Tesla IMO. Created an entirely new market segment and revolutionized the traditional automotive industry we've grown accustomed to.

[JonnyCrash]

Porsche does have the sweet spot in pricing, but they have done it on purpose. If you look at the price increases year over year and generation over generation for the 911, it’s clear that they are driving the price up higher than the advancing tech justifies. They are basing it on being hugely profitable per car given their competition, which are all supercars. Within model ranges they then tune the cars to match the price point, which is why you always have such even gaps between the base, s, gts, turbo and turbo s trims. Other companies do this too, but Porsche is super blatant about it. It’s the one thing that bugs me... other than making every option an overly inflated a as la carte option. I love Porsche cars, and hate Porsche’s commercial model. Even though I completely love the way they are still willing to let you individualize a vehicle to the extreme.

But I digress. I still want another 911 at some point in the future, but the next one o but will be used so that I don’t get nicked and dimed for features and options that will depreciate almost 100% in a year.

Tesla is a different beast, you are right. Tesla is what happens when a software-focussed genius decides to build cars. Tesla overturns every known auto manufacturer model and delivers something unique — an experience. The cars are constantly being upgraded through software, and the physical cars receive changes all the time that don’t correspond to model years but to the availability of new tech. You might buy one built today, and then one built tomorrow has substantially better tech included for the same price, only there was no forewarning or announcements. It’s crazy. They always sell the latest tech but owners who want the latest versions had better stick to six-month leases.

I love the whole Tesla thing, but it’s not for me. I like keeping my technology and my driving in tell different categories... except for my infotainment

BMW is a dinosaur compared to Tesla, and priced according to realistic market forces compared to Porsche. But they make great cars that are safe, rewarding, beautiful (mostly) and which feel premium.

With any of these brands, s long as you know what to expect and are comfortable with it you’ll be very happy.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by SHARMAATL

I just came across this video Tesla posted a couple of months ago. If this is the self-driving tech that Tesla is cooking up, should BMW's engineers ask for an internship or just go back to school?

Tesla system may look impressive, especially in normal driving environment. But I think Elon Musk's refusal to use LIDAR would be its eventual downfall.

Tesla uses cameras and radar - and relies on software to process the visual image instead of using LIDAR. In theory, if the software is perfect, it can work as well as LIDAR (and much cheaper).

But as we all know, software is never perfect. And in situations where the programmers could not foresee, Tesla system would fail as in the some of the previous fatal accident incidence. Obviously, LIDAR systems are not perfect either, but it has less reliance on software than Tesla's system, and would be an important backup.

Tesla's main reason for not using LIDAR is cost. But for the price we are paying for our cars, I believe the cost is insignificant, and Tesla is making a huge mistake.

[teefive]

Originally Posted by alewifebp

Tesla has adopted the Agile development method to the car. With Agile, it's assumed you can produce buggy software, since you can easily get the next iteration out, especially with OTA. However, there is a risk when you are deploying self driving tech over other types of tech. You can't have it fail, but Tesla is willing to take the risk. The Germans are not.

I have a bit of experience in technical product, and would be amazed that BMW (or any other large automaker) isn't adopting agile for tech dev. Amazed to the point of not believing it, as it's been the standard for years now.

I see this as a Tesla prioritizing self driving while having lower risk aversion than a conventional automaker. Not a German thing, as the other US automakers are equally (and historically) risk averse.

[lake_eleven]

Will our BMWs ever get autonomous feature like tesla. If BMW does not catchup soon, lots of tech enthusiastic current BMW owners will cross over as their 2nd vehicle or even their first. The German Big 3 may soon become like the American Big 3.

[Rondi]

I drove over thanksgiving from Houston to San Antonio to visit my daughter, who has a Tesla. Having received my X6 on October 22nd, this was my first trip outside Houston, I was really impressed with DAP, it was really a great and relaxed drive over I-10 to San Antonio and back.

It comes really close to Tesla assistant drive, that my daughter has on her ugly looking Tesla 3.

[jad03060]

A comment about the Australian video...depending on the mode and version of iDrive software, the BMW does show the vehicles around you on the driver's screen, and, it will change lanes when you signal while it is on. Depending on your speed, it will change how long you can keep your hand(s) off of the wheel, and, until recently, Tesla didn't use a camera to determine the driver was paying attention...BMW uses a dedicated camera to verify that the driver's attention is on the road so he isn't just sitting there reading a book or texts on his phone.

I don't have the latest iDrive software, but they claim that it improved some aspects of the tech, so I can't comment. The US versions don't enable the traffic light detection, but some markets can adjust to them, and stop at a red light. We may get that eventually here.

[iconoclast]

Ultimate Driving Machine is not the Ultimate Self-Driving Machine. BMW has catered to driver's and making driver's cars. I suspect they may be one of the last luxury marques to offer autonomous driving.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Tesla system may look impressive, especially in normal driving environment. But I think Elon Musk's refusal to use LIDAR would be its eventual downfall.

Tesla uses cameras and radar - and relies on software to process the visual image instead of using LIDAR. In theory, if the software is perfect, it can work as well as LIDAR (and much cheaper).

But as we all know, software is never perfect. And in situations where the programmers could not foresee, Tesla system would fail as in the some of the previous fatal accident incidence. Obviously, LIDAR systems are not perfect either, but it has less reliance on software than Tesla's system, and would be an important backup.

Tesla's main reason for not using LIDAR is cost. But for the price we are paying for our cars, I believe the cost is insignificant, and Tesla is making a huge mistake.

I agree. Tesla in fact is not even using radar any more. Our MY was one of the last to have radar and camera. Use of only camera will limit how fast or how well Tesla can innovate. LiDAR will always be more accurate than a camera only system. There is no way I'll trust FSD with a camera only set up or even autopilot in fog or rain due to the increased risk.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Tesla's main reason for not using LIDAR is cost.

(1.) Tesla's reason for using camera-only is not "cost"
...Or at least not in way implied. To understand why, look at WayMo Jags or Cruise operating autonomously in SF:



That's a $500k+ proprietary sensor package on that car.

(a.) You can't sell consumers a vehicle with a $500k self-driving option ... so in that sense (and only that sense) it's about cost.

(b.) You can't sell consumers a vehicle with bunch of shit hanging all over it.

Thus the reason Tesla is going camera-only is because analytical camera image recognition software is the only technology path available for Level 4 (or 5) consumer vehicles!

Elon is attempting to invent "panoptics" on-the-fly.


(2.) It's not clear which technology will be more accurate
Level 3-5 autonomous driving software breaks down into 3 pieces:

* Sense
* Decide
* Act

Probabilistic ballistic math has been well understood for decades (and somewhat for centuries); and the computing power necessary for high-speed calculations has also been available for decades (Tomahawk cruise missile anyone?).

So the "decide" and "act" parts are mostly a product problem similar to laptop computers in the early 1980s: the capabilities are there, but the product isn't. That is, getting those capabilities into a product of right size, the right price, and the right functionality for a large mass of people isn't figured out yet ...

And that's because of the "sense" part:

* On the one hand, expensive sensors make for cheap compute (Waymo)

* On the other, inexpensive sensors (cameras) make for expensive compute (Tesla)

Elon's right that LiDar is somewhat of a dead-end:

Sure, mass production of sensors might make them much cheaper, but that's a manufacturing & scale issue - that might not work - and is a function of finding a need to generate that scale! Which also might fail. Obviously Waymo is convinced that need is robo-taxis for consumers and robo-trucking for JB Hunt.

Cameras & analytical image software, on the other hand, haven't even begun with their potential ...

... but then that's all it is now: potential.

[thereef510]

Originally Posted by iconoclast

Ultimate Driving Machine is not the Ultimate Self-Driving Machine. BMW has catered to driver's and making driver's cars. I suspect they may be one of the last luxury marques to offer autonomous driving.

I think they would like to but there's no way they can fall behind MB and Audi if they offer it. The competition in the segment is too fierce for them to totally ignore self driving. I think they will continue to tout 'the ultimate driving experience' for those who want to drive and offer the autonomous stuff for those who dont.

[Flying Ace]

I think BMW has a harder time finding living crash test dummies for their autopilot program. Tesla for some reason has a lot of volunteers willing to kill themselves for a billionaire