[cellarrat]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Here is a list of the CARB states for those that are interested.

Different list here


https://www.metromile.com/blog/all-y...ow-about-carb/

EDIT: you just left out the 2d page: VA, NV, & NM

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by cellarrat

Different list here

I would go with the one I posted since it comes from the CARB site and was updated more recently.

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default...ales_r2_ac.pdf

Edit: added to original post.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by cellarrat

Different list here


https://www.metromile.com/blog/all-y...ow-about-carb/

EDIT: you just left out the 2d page: VA, NV, & NM

Just keep in mind those aren't CARB states until 2025/2026 at least as far as following the regulations go.

[Twags]

Update on my OP: at 10 months, 12.5k miles, my 22 45e was back in the shop for multiple battery issues again. After 3 weeks, I began insisting on an extended warranty. What I got, instead, was an offer to swap my car for a brand new 23, built to my specs. I added an additional $4500 of options - all at no cost to me. Car is currently awaiting transport. My repaired 22 was finally returned to me after 5 weeks in the shop. Great car, a dealer that’s willing to go to bat, and a company that seems anxious to please. So I’m willing to give it another try.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by Twags

Update on my OP: at 10 months, 12.5k miles, my 22 45e was back in the shop for multiple battery issues again. After 3 weeks, I began insisting on an extended warranty. What I got, instead, was an offer to swap my car for a brand new 23, built to my specs. I added an additional $4500 of options - all at no cost to me. Car is currently awaiting transport. My repaired 22 was finally returned to me after 5 weeks in the shop. Great car, a dealer that’s willing to go to bat, and a company that seems anxious to please. So I’m willing to give it another try.

That is a great outcome, thanks for updating us.

[cellarrat]

Originally Posted by Twags

Update on my OP: at 10 months, 12.5k miles, my 22 45e was back in the shop for multiple battery issues again. After 3 weeks, I began insisting on an extended warranty. What I got, instead, was an offer to swap my car for a brand new 23, built to my specs. I added an additional $4500 of options - all at no cost to me. Car is currently awaiting transport. My repaired 22 was finally returned to me after 5 weeks in the shop. Great car, a dealer that’s willing to go to bat, and a company that seems anxious to please. So I’m willing to give it another try.

I mean, hard to complain about that resolution! I would be disappointed moving to idrive 8, but that's my personal preference. Good to see them take care of you, and pretty worrying w/r/t my 22!

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by cellarrat

I mean, hard to complain about that resolution! I would be disappointed moving to idrive 8, but that's my personal preference. Good to see them take care of you, and pretty worrying w/r/t my 22!

Things happen, I don't think you need to worry about yours. The 23's use iDrive 7.

[leightos]

Originally Posted by Twags

Update on my OP: at 10 months, 12.5k miles, my 22 45e was back in the shop for multiple battery issues again. After 3 weeks, I began insisting on an extended warranty. What I got, instead, was an offer to swap my car for a brand new 23, built to my specs. I added an additional $4500 of options - all at no cost to me. Car is currently awaiting transport. My repaired 22 was finally returned to me after 5 weeks in the shop. Great car, a dealer that’s willing to go to bat, and a company that seems anxious to please. So I’m willing to give it another try.

Great news.
I hope I get that deal. My 21 45e (16 months, 16k miles) is in for Battery Power/Drivetrain Malfunction, 3 weeks now . No end in sight. (also was in for Battery recall earlier this year). Asked for a replacement, they said decision takes about 3 weeks. So we'll see. My car totally qualifies for CA lemon, but I've not mentioned that word and dealing directly w/ BMWNA for now whov'e been nice.

[biterror]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Additionally, BMW PHEVs have a low temperature cooling circuit with the engine included in that circuit to enable the EV motor, including with a heater if needed, to warm up the engine fluids during operation to minimize the risk of cold starting the engine at high RPM. That same low temperature cooling circuit is used to heat the batteries when needed as well. Such as trying to get the preconditioning going at -15F or when starting the EV motor at those temperatures for driving…

Where did you get this heating information from? It has been mentioned a few times on this forum that the 45e can't heat (or precondition) the HV battery (and I think the same applies to the ICE).

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by biterror

Where did you get this heating information from? It has been mentioned a few times on this forum that the 45e can't heat (or precondition) the HV battery (and I think the same applies to the ICE).

I know the debates very well as my claims sparked them. I've been told I'm wrong, but I'm not...

I got this information from newTIS. It confirms that the 530e and X5 45e are both on the same BMW PHEV platform 4.0 as well as details such as this.

The confusion is due to BWM only listing the refrigerant side for battery cooling, but they don't talk much about the low temperature protections.

It is also why we don't see our BMW manuals warning about our batteries freezing like other PHEVs do without such technology.

This is from the 530e, but I'll share a similar snap once I get some time later if it is important. With the Low Temp Coolant Circuit technical photo.

Lastly, a more detailed explanation is available here @ https://www.hella.com/techworld/uk/T...vehicles-1725/

[Brigitte]

Originally Posted by Twags

Update on my OP: at 10 months, 12.5k miles, my 22 45e was back in the shop for multiple battery issues again. After 3 weeks, I began insisting on an extended warranty. What I got, instead, was an offer to swap my car for a brand new 23, built to my specs. I added an additional $4500 of options - all at no cost to me. Car is currently awaiting transport. My repaired 22 was finally returned to me after 5 weeks in the shop. Great car, a dealer that’s willing to go to bat, and a company that seems anxious to please. So I’m willing to give it another try.

WOW! That is an exceptional dealer! Good for you

[biterror]

Thanks, LogicalApex . Do you know when the high voltage heater is used? I have driven in cold weather (around -30 C or -22 F) and it took a long (maybe 30 km, 20 miles) time before the car started using the battery. Does the 45e precondition the battery if it's plugged in and I precondition the car? (Maybe it's just that 15-30 minutes is not enough on a cold day.)

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by biterror

Where did you get this heating information from? It has been mentioned a few times on this forum that the 45e can't heat (or precondition) the HV battery (and I think the same applies to the ICE).

I'm skeptical as well.

LogicalApex if this were the case, then why are vehicles subject to extreme cold unable to utilize the HV battery for preconditioning or initial use at the beginning of their trip if there are heating elements for said "protection"? while there may be no warnings in our manuals about freezing battery temps, these instances have been well documented by users in this and other forums. to me, these reports are more reliable support that your purported tech doesn't exist.

again, I'm skeptical because much of your 'proof' comes from the experience with your 530e, and you're adamant that certain technologies are shared from that platform to the X5 45e. you've already learned more than once in this forum that some tech and behaviors aren't the same between these two vehicles.

BTW, the hella document you linked is generic and not specific to the BMW X5 45e nor your 530e. you're the only one to have such faith here and in the interwebs. your fervor is appreciated, though, but I'm still not convinced the heating element referenced in this document applies to us.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by biterror

Thanks, LogicalApex . Do you know when the high voltage heater is used? I have driven in cold weather (around -30 C or -22 F) and it took a long (maybe 30 km, 20 miles) time before the car started using the battery. Does the 45e precondition the battery if it's plugged in and I precondition the car? (Maybe it's just that 15-30 minutes is not enough on a cold day.)

How are you preconditioning the car? With a schedule or just one-off in the app?

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

I'm skeptical as well.

LogicalApex if this were the case, then why are vehicles subject to extreme cold unable to utilize the HV battery for preconditioning or initial use at the beginning of their trip if there are heating elements for said "protection"? while there may be no warnings in our manuals about freezing battery temps, these instances have been well documented by users in this and other forums. to me, these reports are more reliable support that your purported tech doesn't exist.

again, I'm skeptical because much of your 'proof' comes from the experience with your 530e, and you're adamant that certain technologies are shared from that platform to the X5 45e. you've already learned more than once in this forum that some tech and behaviors aren't the same between these two vehicles.

BTW, the hella document you linked is generic and not specific to the BMW X5 45e nor your 530e. you're the only one to have such faith here and in the interwebs. your fervor is appreciated, though, but I'm still not convinced the heating element referenced in this document applies to us.

Yes, the hella document is generic. The other documents I shared screenshots of are from newtis directly which is documentation directly from BMW AG.

As shown in the screenshots of the low temperature cooling circuit. The engine is connected to that circuit and can be used to heat the HV system as a result. When I’ve pointed out the ability for the car to use the engine to heat the HV system to operating temperature I was told the car can’t use engine heat in anyway. The diagram from BMW shows it does…

BMW also will use the electric heater from the HV side to warm the engine as well when driving in cold weather when operating purely on HV so the engine isn’t starting ice cold at high speeds.

The reason I posted the information from Hella is it shows how the HV system in cars like this maintain temperature. They use the refrigerant lines to both heat and cool the battery.

As I said many times. The PHEV drive train between these cars are the same with the difference being battery size and engine pairings. BMW AG technical documents I shared notes this as well.

If there was no capability to heat the HV battery then the PHEV wouldn’t be capable of using EV driving in cold climates. And you can’t heat an already full battery by charging it. Heat during the charging or discharging process is generated by transferring the lithium ions back between the anode and cathode. If the battery is already charged you can’t overcharge it. Otherwise, you’ll risk thermal runway and a lithium ion fire.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles...n-battery-work

[JS8041]

I've had my car 10 months, and took it in for oil change. In last ten months we had two times when the car shut down the battery component and said it was overheating. Multiple times the car would error when charging, and we'd come out to a error and a completely empty battery.

Here we are, car has been in the shop for two months. They've tried multiple times to fix it, and multiple parts. Even got the BMW engineering team on it, and nothing. Looking like it's going to be a lemon law situation, which breaks my heart.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by JS8041

I've had my car 10 months, and took it in for oil change. In last ten months we had two times when the car shut down the battery component and said it was overheating. Multiple times the car would error when charging, and we'd come out to a error and a completely empty battery.

Here we are, car has been in the shop for two months. They've tried multiple times to fix it, and multiple parts. Even got the BMW engineering team on it, and nothing. Looking like it's going to be a lemon law situation, which breaks my heart.

Welcome to the forum. They likely will not want to go through the Lemon Law process but rather buy it back. Talk with the Service Director and tell him you want to pursue a buy back (it is good to have him advocating for you) and then contact BMW and tell explain the situation and ask them to open a case for a buy back.

[Flying Ace]

11 months in, only had 1 issue. It stopped charging and had a charging error. Restarted the car and the error never reappeared.

[nZtiZia]

the only issue I forgot to mention when I posted in October last year was that charging with the included level 1 EVSE stopped for some reason (only 1 occurrence). there were no power glitches, outages, or tripped circuit. it just stopped 84% of the way. I unplugged then re-plugged the connector, and never had an issue again. shortly after that, I installed and began using a level 2 without any problems so far

[leightos]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Welcome to the forum. They likely will not want to go through the Lemon Law process but rather buy it back. Talk with the Service Director and tell him you want to pursue a buy back (it is good to have him advocating for you) and then contact BMW and tell explain the situation and ask them to open a case for a buy back.

To reinforce this post, and to follow up on my post above: BMWNA has stated they will repurchase my vehicle that is still in the shop 56 days on and still no fix in sight. Negotiations are ongoing.TurtleBoy has it exactly right.

Be nice to those at the local dealers because they can make or break your deal.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

...
The reason I posted the information from Hella is it shows how the HV system in cars like this maintain temperature. They use the refrigerant lines to both heat and cool the battery.

..

By definition, this is a heat pump. So we have a head pump in 45e? If there is a heat pump, why not use the same mechanism to heat the cabin?

What this diagram is showing is (forget how BMW call its fancy name) , the intercooler loop. I wonder what is the red circle is connected to. If I have make a guess, it is the AC condenser. air-water inter cooler needs water at a very low temperature, so the engine loop wont' work. A separate low temperature loop is a must. In this case, using the same loop cooing the AC condenser make sense, HVB also make sense. There is nothing here show this loop is used to warm up anything tho. Maybe they do and didn't indicate here. Warm side just return to radiators (1 and 2, yes air-coolant exchangers. LOL). This loop never get warm, and not supposed to get warm. So this loop cannot be used for HVB warming.

[Twags]

Final update to my OP: My 23 45e was delivered a little over a month ago, with no omissions on the build. 1350 trouble-free miles!

[JS8041]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Welcome to the forum. They likely will not want to go through the Lemon Law process but rather buy it back. Talk with the Service Director and tell him you want to pursue a buy back (it is good to have him advocating for you) and then contact BMW and tell explain the situation and ask them to open a case for a buy back.

I've opened a case with BMW NA, and they told me a case manager would be calling me within 5 days.

I've been very nice to the dealership, I have no issues with them, however, I'm hoping BMW NA has some decent customer service skills, because this clearly is an issue that seems like they are not competent to handle (BMW USA). It's really unexpected coming from a brand that has such a good reputation.

Of course they don't want to lemon-law it, it would need to be sold with the lemon tag going forward. But I'm out 100k and I've no car for 2 months, that's really not ok.

Trying to be patient, but it's running thin...