Bench Flash tune is a Bench Flash tune?

[ImpetuousRacer]

AMS Tune - 93HP, 100TQ $2500
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1080125

ESS S63TÜ T-700 Performance ECU Software for F10 M5/F1X M6 - 95HP, 109TQ $1900
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17663073

Vivid Racing Tune - 70HP, 120TQ $1500
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/v...150949476.html

BR Performance Tune - 105HP, 170 nm TQ $1935
http://www.br-performance.be/en-be/c...5-competition/

Eurocharged Tune - Bologna Numbers
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1095704

Jailbreak Tune - ?
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1082497


Above are all the "Bench Flash Tunes" I've seen lately.

I've heard some people say "the tunes are all a similar canned tune, there isnt that much of a difference."

Is this true? From my understanding, BR Performance came up with the methodology, hardware, software and instructions to allow tuners to bench flash the M5 ECU. They charged each tuner access to use their proprietary system to direct flash thus bypassing the encryption.

However, it's my understanding that each tune is done by a different tuner with difference experience; HP/TQ numbers, rev limiters, will vary - all are just bench flashed onto the ECU in a similar method.

The prices are quite different across the board.


My question is, are all tunes from each of the vendors above all close enough that it really doesn't matter?

Vivid racing is local, can pull and flash the ECU, they have done a number of Ferrair 458's the same way, have experience bench flash tuning, but the tune is one from a European source they load on there. So there is no detailed information behind it.

What's everyone's thought. Thanks for the input!

[Sharif507]

Originally Posted by ImpetuousRacer

AMS Tune - 93HP, 100TQ
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1080125

Vivid Racing Tune - 70HP, 120TQ
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/v...150949476.html

BR Performance Tune - 44HP, 45TQ?
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1086187

Eurocharged Tune - Bologna Numbers
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1095704

Jailbreak Tune - ?
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1082497


Above are all the "Bench Flash Tunes" I've seen lately.

I've heard some people say "the tunes are all a similar canned tune, there isnt that much of a difference."

Is this true? From my understanding, BR Performance came up with the methodology, hardware, software and instructions to allow tuners to bench flash the M5 ECU. They charged each tuner access to use their proprietary system to direct flash thus bypassing the encryption.

However, it's my understanding that each tune is done by a different tuner with difference experience; HP/TQ numbers, rev limiters, will vary - all are just bench flashed onto the ECU in a similar method.

The prices are quite different across the board.


My question is, are all tunes from each of the vendors above all close enough that it really doesn't matter?

Vivid racing is local, can pull and flash the ECU, they have done a number of Ferrair 458's the same way, have experience bench flash tuning, but the tune is one from a European source they load on there. So there is no detailed information behind it.

What's everyone's thought. Thanks for the input!

i personally would go with AMS. i emailed Eric today, they are trying to get the unlock time down to a day so that the turnaround is quick. some members have installed the br performance tune on the boards, however, no reply or much intel from their side as of yet. guess we will have to wait and see the reviews each tune gets, but i think its a little early to say which is better or worse, my main concern is the DCT, i dont know how it will manage the amount of power increase specially the amount of tq increase each tune provides. sighs, we need to get this tested asap.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by ImpetuousRacer

AMS Tune - 93HP, 100TQ
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1080125

Vivid Racing Tune - 70HP, 120TQ
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/v...150949476.html

BR Performance Tune - 44HP, 45TQ?
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1086187

Eurocharged Tune - Bologna Numbers
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1095704

Jailbreak Tune - ?
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1082497


Above are all the "Bench Flash Tunes" I've seen lately.

I've heard some people say "the tunes are all a similar canned tune, there isnt that much of a difference."

Is this true? From my understanding, BR Performance came up with the methodology, hardware, software and instructions to allow tuners to bench flash the M5 ECU. They charged each tuner access to use their proprietary system to direct flash thus bypassing the encryption.

However, it's my understanding that each tune is done by a different tuner with difference experience; HP/TQ numbers, rev limiters, will vary - all are just bench flashed onto the ECU in a similar method.

The prices are quite different across the board.


My question is, are all tunes from each of the vendors above all close enough that it really doesn't matter?

Vivid racing is local, can pull and flash the ECU, they have done a number of Ferrair 458's the same way, have experience bench flash tuning, but the tune is one from a European source they load on there. So there is no detailed information behind it.

What's everyone's thought. Thanks for the input!

My understanding is the same as yours. The different tuners have bought the tools (software and hardware) needed in order to crack the pwd and write to the ECU from BR. But each tuner develop their own software/tune.

[MCarsFan]

Thanks for a great thread. On your comparisons. Some tunes are with downpipes and there are therefore different parameters for the tuning results. I think it's important that this is taken into account or expectations could not be met or be exceeded.
In the case of the BR Performance tune, I am unclear on your figure indicated. I am running around 600whp which at the crank is a lot higher depending on claimed power loss. Even if this number is 680hp at 10% -15% that's over 100hp increase in power. 44hp is low. The cars with downpipes and Stage II tune are probably closer to 740 - 760 hp..
Whichever tuner you go with, be prepared to remove your ecus and to ship them! 5 days turnaround has been impressive from CA to Belgium..but it's still something you need to accept.

[Boostedm514]

none the less none of these are "custom" tunes they simply are just that....flashes allowing the stock engine to perform exactly how bmw would of had it unlimited from the factory, the file to get into the factory ecu can be purchased for aprox 8-10k buy tuners alike and can then be "custom" tuned for specific mods provided the tuner is competent to do so

You'll see a few more companies coming out shortly with their own tunes and custom abilities

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by Boostedm514

none the less none of these are "custom" tunes they simply are just that....flashes allowing the stock engine to perform exactly how bmw would of had it unlimited from the factory, the file to get into the factory ecu can be purchased for aprox 8-10k buy tuners alike and can then be "custom" tuned for specific mods provided the tuner is competent to do so

You'll see a few more companies coming out shortly with their own tunes and custom abilities

I have been through this process and have a remapped M5 and I can tell you that the decryption is not a simple matter of buying a file. The decryption process requires the ECUs to be unlocked. Your ECUs have to be removed and then reprogrammed to accept different parameters. My car was one of the first remapped for the US market and it required BR Performance to change parameters such as fuel ratio / timing etc to increase power to where it is now. The limiter was another issue as the U.S. M5 is coded differently to the EU version.

In the case of US based tuners, I think the real benefit will be that they will do a real custom tune that isn't within broad parameters and that is more fine tuned to a specific car. This is where I think the real value will come and I look forward to a time when the decrypted ECUs can be reprogrammed via OBDII or some other means.

[ImpetuousRacer]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

Thanks for a great thread. On your comparisons. Some tunes are with downpipes and there are therefore different parameters for the tuning results. I think it's important that this is taken into account or expectations could not be met or be exceeded.
In the case of the BR Performance tune, I am unclear on your figure indicated. I am running around 600whp which at the crank is a lot higher depending on claimed power loss. Even if this number is 680hp at 10% -15% that's over 100hp increase in power. 44hp is low. The cars with downpipes and Stage II tune are probably closer to 740 - 760 hp..
Whichever tuner you go with, be prepared to remove your ecus and to ship them! 5 days turnaround has been impressive from CA to Belgium..but it's still something you need to accept.

I was just going off the dyno graph I saw posted on the first post of the thread I linked to. Maybe I read it wrong? Hence the question mark next to the numbers.

Vivid racing is local to me. I can drop the car off there, they will pull the ECU, bench flash, install, dyno before and after all in same day for $1500.
Amazing deal!

However, they aren't doing the tuning. They have an unspecified "European Partner" that has done a canned tune for the M5 that has supposedly been tested and used. (guess they are licensing the file?) They simply have the ability to pull ECU, open, and flash the file onto the ECU.

There is no dyno of the results, there are no prior customers with feedback on it, there is no tuner or tuning company that is disclosed that I can verify their reputation. Hence, the deal so I can be the feedback person and show dyno results.

The above scares me. I do not want to go cheap and pay more in the end.
However, perhaps all these tunes are very similar and it doesn't matter?

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by Sharif507

my main concern is the DCT, i dont know how it will manage the amount of power increase specially the amount of tq increase each tune provides. sighs, we need to get this tested asap.

Yup thats my worry... While I think BMWs R&D and parts are beefier than Nissan. I know right around 550-700wtrq you really need to be on point with how you use the car or you WILL snap a connecting rod, blow a gear, something. So while I have faith BMW is more reliable in that department, they aren't immune to the physics of stock parts unless for instance the current gen DCT/S63tu are just so insanely underpowered stock for the quality of the parts that it won't matter... Which I personally don't think is true otherwise Terry wouldn't be having clutch slip issues in the 600whp/trq range on the m4..


Personally don't trust dynojet numbers much anymore just seeing all the gtr guys go from mustang dynos to dynojets and almost always post 100+whp/trq more on dyno-jets. Which may be a reason we aren't seeing any failures with BMS/DP's/Meth is because when we're all posting 600+ numbers its actually more like high 500s low low 600s

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

Yup thats my worry... While I think BMWs R&D and parts are beefier than Nissan. I know right around 550-700wtrq you really need to be on point with how you use the car or you WILL snap a connecting rod, blow a gear, something. So while I have faith BMW is more reliable in that department, they aren't immune to the physics of stock parts unless for instance the current gen DCT/S63tu are just so insanely underpowered stock for the quality of the parts that it won't matter... Which I personally don't think is true otherwise Terry wouldn't be having clutch slip issues in the 600whp/trq range on the m4..


Personally don't trust dynojet numbers much anymore just seeing all the gtr guys go from mustang dynos to dynojets and almost always post 100+whp/trq more on dyno-jets. Which may be a reason we aren't seeing any failures with BMS/DP's/Meth is because when we're all posting 600+ numbers its actually more like high 500s low low 600s

I agree 100% lots of high dyno numbers and no mid 130 mph traps to back them up on the Tu. Same is true with the S55 no way in hell are they making 500-550whp when at best they are only trapping 123-126mph .

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

I agree 100% lots of high dyno numbers and no mid 130 mph traps to back them up on the Tu. Same is true with the S55 no way in hell are they making 500-550whp when at best they are only trapping 123-126mph .

These things can throw down on the dynojet but like you said even with some of our better guys at the track that can get the cars off the line the cars regardless of the blend of downpipe/dtronics or bms are struggling to post better than low 130s. Which is both good and bad for tuning because you can go get a bench tune or turn up BMS with ease and not face something catastrophic, the false sense of security though would be present if they unlocked this car to the point that you could just strap big ass turbos on it and add 150+whp on-top of that bench tune.. Then I think you'll see people shocked at the issues that start to crop up (not even considering fueling limitations).

Personally if I was going to go about being one of the first in line I would:

AMS tune
Have MotiV make me a turbo kit
Order that dodson dct clutch kit

and see how it runs... Keeping it in the back of my mind that the stock gearing and engine internals, and the injectors being asked to pump so much more fuel into the car would still be exposed to an extreme amount of increased wtq and hp.

^and lets not forget stock diffs if you actually have a car making 700+ and start using your launch control lol

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Same is true with the S55 no way in hell are they making

Yup I'd say stock m4/m3's on a mustang would be somewhere in the 300s with maxed out JB4 e85 ones in the high 400s

low and behold http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1038646

[boots]

Hi guys. Although I'm back offshore working and haven't had much time to perform qualified testing (still in the works), I can report that the speedo limiter is unlocked. On the 4wheel Dyno my car reached a speed (5th) gear @190mph. Hp numbers are up but until I return from work in a few weeks and we finish testing I cannot comment on anything. I think this is an exciting time for f10 m5 owners. Mcarsfan car is running strong as well as another members car here in Town. Safe driving all.

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by boots

I think this is an exciting time for f10 m5 owners.

Definitely agree there!

[Dossey]

Same boat as everyone else.....I'm really anxious to see how the clutches and engine internals hold up to the power. My GTR was making mid-700's HP and low-600's torque and that's all the clutches could handle. It really needed a clutch upgrade just to put that much down. My M5 just put down 655hp/616tq (on a dynojet) with the JB4 on +4.0 which is pretty close to the torque of the GTR which makes me curious if/when I'll have clutch issues. I'm also about to tryout some Nitto NT05R's so I'll lose that buffer of the tires spinning.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by ImpetuousRacer

I was just going off the dyno graph I saw posted on the first post of the thread I linked to. Maybe I read it wrong? Hence the question mark next to the numbers.

Vivid racing is local to me. I can drop the car off there, they will pull the ECU, bench flash, install, dyno before and after all in same day for $1500.
Amazing deal!

However, they aren't doing the tuning. They have an unspecified "European Partner" that has done a canned tune for the M5 that has supposedly been tested and used. (guess they are licensing the file?) They simply have the ability to pull ECU, open, and flash the file onto the ECU.

There is no dyno of the results, there are no prior customers with feedback on it, there is no tuner or tuning company that is disclosed that I can verify their reputation. Hence, the deal so I can be the feedback person and show dyno results.

The above scares me. I do not want to go cheap and pay more in the end.
However, perhaps all these tunes are very similar and it doesn't matter?

If they aren't doing the tuning possibly its BR Peformance? On my numbers the graphs showed wheel hp and therefore needed to be converted to crank. The third page of the thread has my second Dyno figures after BR had made more adjustments to the remap.

If you have concerns on the shipping, more than happy to assist with information. Key is having someone correctly remove and reinstall your ECUs.

[Mbmw5]

Originally Posted by 335iRlz

Yup thats my worry... While I think BMWs R&D and parts are beefier than Nissan. I know right around 550-700wtrq you really need to be on point with how you use the car or you WILL snap a connecting rod, blow a gear, something. So while I have faith BMW is more reliable in that department, they aren't immune to the physics of stock parts unless for instance the current gen DCT/S63tu are just so insanely underpowered stock for the quality of the parts that it won't matter... Which I personally don't think is true otherwise Terry wouldn't be having clutch slip issues in the 600whp/trq range on the m4..


Personally don't trust dynojet numbers much anymore just seeing all the gtr guys go from mustang dynos to dynojets and almost always post 100+whp/trq more on dyno-jets. Which may be a reason we aren't seeing any failures with BMS/DP's/Meth is because when we're all posting 600+ numbers its actually more like high 500s low low 600s

My m5 was tuned, catless down pipes and full custom exhaust. I can tell you that the DCT will not hold up and start slipping. Major issue. My car was dyno on mainline which is one of the best. 630 whp with 550 tq. Things will start to break. WAiting for Dodson to come out with performance clutch disc that will hold up. Anyone having the same issues?????

[MCarsFan]

600whp 625 lb - ft torque on my remap. Been running this tune since January and over 2500 miles. No issues.. Nada...not one.

[Dossey]

Originally Posted by Mbmw5

My m5 was tuned, catless down pipes and full custom exhaust. I can tell you that the DCT will not hold up and start slipping. Major issue. My car was dyno on mainline which is one of the best. 630 whp with 550 tq. Things will start to break. WAiting for Dodson to come out with performance clutch disc that will hold up. Anyone having the same issues?????

630/550 on a Mainline is really, really strong. That would be over 700 on a Dynojet. I would speculate something like 720 to 725, so it doesn't shock me that you had trouble. What did it feel like when you started having issues? slipping/free-rev'ing at the top of a particular gear, etc.?

Also, doesn't Dodson have a kit out already? I haven't researched it, but I feel like I might need to soon.

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

600whp 625 lb - ft torque on my remap. Been running this tune since January and over 2500 miles. No issues.. Nada...not one.

I'd put big money that it wouldn't make that on a mustang dyno. Just saying, I'm sure if you have it flash tuned you're controlled variables are MUCH better and safer. But I'd wager both your numbers are in the REAL high 500s which is probably safe for the car same with the GTRs. Its mid 600s and above that things go bad at least for them. I'd wager bmw engineering could get near 700s before things got catastrophic, since I trust they over engineer better than nissan [even if its their flagship model].

Originally Posted by Mbmw5

WAiting for Dodson to come out with performance clutch disc that will hold up. Anyone having the same issues?????

http://www.performanceracing.com/pre...-pri-show-2014

They have a clutch kit either in the works or almost ready, maybe even done.

While I think its a wise upgrade, I just wouldn't wanna spend the money until I'm sure if the gears could take it, other parts of the trans, diffs, engine internals...

[6spdterror]

Originally Posted by Mbmw5

My m5 was tuned, catless down pipes and full custom exhaust. I can tell you that the DCT will not hold up and start slipping. Major issue. My car was dyno on mainline which is one of the best. 630 whp with 550 tq. Things will start to break. WAiting for Dodson to come out with performance clutch disc that will hold up. Anyone having the same issues?????

I think your car was tuned by Enzo also?

[tom @ eas]

Add ESS's flash to the list:

ESS S63TÜ T-700 Performance ECU Software for F10 M5/F1X M6 - 95HP, 109TQ
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17663073

[6spdterror]

Originally Posted by Dossey

630/550 on a Mainline is really, really strong. That would be over 700 on a Dynojet. I would speculate something like 720 to 725, so it doesn't shock me that you had trouble. What did it feel like when you started having issues? slipping/free-rev'ing at the top of a particular gear, etc.?

Also, doesn't Dodson have a kit out already? I haven't researched it, but I feel like I might need to soon.

You are correct. Mainline dynos are very accurate and read much lower than dynojet. Mine dynoed 619whp and 550ftlb on a mainline

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by 6spdterror

You are correct. Mainline dynos are very accurate and read much lower than dynojet. Mine dynoed 619whp and 550ftlb on a mainline

Those are great numbers. Was customization of tune once ecu's flashed done via OBD II?