rotary buffer and dual action polisher

[sonicbimmer19]

Hey guys,
I just talked to someone from Meguiar's and he told me I have to use a "rotary" buffer to compound (and polish) then I have to use a "dual action" polisher to (polish) and wax.

Do you all have both rotary and dual action polishers? Is it really necessary or luxury?

He added you CAN wax with rotary, but you cannot compound/buff with dual action, so if I must get just one, I should get rotary.
I decided to drop about $150 to get the Meguiar's dual action polisher, but it looks like I have to double that lol.

And there are so many different products and pads if you want to do the job correctly. Who knew polishing cars require so much studying... haha

[TOGWT]

When anyone is motivated by a sale they'll say anything...

1.You can compond with an orbital (Microfiber, SurBuf or Purple Wool / Foam) pad along with Megs M105

2. Using a foam pad you can polish or apply a wax or sealant

[zkeeper]

TGWT is right...you were being "sold"...no need to buy more machines. Use the right pad combo for the Megs 105 to compound as he said...and then use correct pads for wax applications of your choice. Make sure surface is totally clean, then clayed so you are not pushing dirt/debris into paint, but your machine is fine. Its in the pad/product combos which vary and give you the aggressiveness you wish. Check out www.autogeek.com for more info and videos to reeeeeeeeallly keep you up in your R&D department...

[sonicbimmer19]

Thanks guys.
Is Meguiar's M105 pretty much the same thing as Meguiar's Ultimate Compound? but M105 is made more to be used for professionals using DA polishers and Ultimate Compound is more for people just buffing by hand/pads? I wouldn't think the formula for those two are different..? anyone know?

[mikenap]

Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19

Thanks guys.
Is Meguiar's M105 pretty much the same thing as Meguiar's Ultimate Compound? but M105 is made more to be used for professionals using DA polishers and Ultimate Compound is more for people just buffing by hand/pads? I wouldn't think the formula for those two are different..? anyone know?

105 is significantly more aggressive than UC. UC is easier to use, easier to find and less likely to get you in trouble. If you're just doing your own car, you might be better off with UC than 105, especially if it's not in too bad of shape.

[sonicbimmer19]

Originally Posted by mikenap

105 is significantly more aggressive than UC. UC is easier to use, easier to find and less likely to get you in trouble. If you're just doing your own car, you might be better off with UC than 105, especially if it's not in too bad of shape.

Gotcha, thanks. Looks like I'll probably just use UC still when I get the polisher

[Dackelone]

So... IF one(detailer novice like myself!) is considering buying a DA polisher like the porter cable one Griots sells... I would just need the correct pads and product right? Or are you guys saying one doesn't need a DA polisher and that any "buffer" will do?

[sonicbimmer19]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

So... IF one(detailer novice like myself!) is considering buying a DA polisher like the porter cable one Griots sells... I would just need the correct pads and product right? Or are you guys saying one doesn't need a DA polisher and that any "buffer" will do?

If you want to do detailing absolutely right, then you need both rotary AND dual action/ortibal.

Rotary is risky and if you're a noob like myself it can burn paint. Dual action and ortibal won't burn paint and it's low risk.

Rotary's are the most aggressive and you need rotary to really compound.
Dual action does everything that traditional ortibal does at low speeds (speeds 1-3 on Porter Cable) and it can do decent compounding at higher speeds (speeds 4-6 on porter cable), but it still has limits.

Read the second post of the thread below, it explains real good. (explained by Meguiar's)
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...Orbital-Buffer

Summary:
To remove swirl marks, light scratches, waxing, and just about everything, dual action or orbital such as porter cable you're looking at is fine.
But if you get a scratch deep enough, like key scratches or what not, you NEED rotary and skills. Dual action or orbital won't be able to compound deep scratches.

[sonicbimmer19]

Is Porter Cable a dual action polisher? none of descriptions say it is dual action and just says it's orbital. I'm not sure but I'm probably just going to get Meguiar's dual action polisher

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19

Is Porter Cable a dual action polisher? none of descriptions say it is dual action and just says it's orbital. I'm not sure but I'm probably just going to get Meguiar's dual action polisher

I don't know. I just assumed it was. Maybe its just an "orbital" polisher. ?


Thanks for the advice(two posts above) Sonic.

[TOGWT]

Some different names for the same machine-
PC Porter-Cable (the mfg), ROB (random orbital polisher) or derivatives

This is a description of the machine's movement- Orbital (OPM - elliptical and rotary orbit) these duel-action polishing machines are preferred by the majority of enthusiasts for maintaining their vehicle's finish.

A rotary polisher is a single action (circular rotation) and is used by body-shops and experienced or professional detailers

[sonicbimmer19]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I don't know. I just assumed it was. Maybe its just an "orbital" polisher. ?


Thanks for the advice(two posts above) Sonic.

Ok. TOGWT says Porter Cable is dual action and I confirmed it myself on the web too. I still prefer Meguiar's DA because they have "if broken/unhappy, return it whenever, we'll give you a new one, no questions asked policy"

And you're welcome

[mikenap]

Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19

If you want to do detailing absolutely right, then you need both rotary AND dual action/ortibal.

This is absolutely no longer the case. The article you read was from 2004, and since that time technology has grown by leaps and bounds. Most top pros are either moving away from rotary polishers completely or relegating them for special use only, such as for severe paint damage or to finish on some tricky paint systems where a DA will not finish down for whatever reason. Read through this article by Todd Cooperider, one of the most respected and knowledgeable detailers in the country. Also, scroll down and read Chad Raskovich's comment (3rd one). He's another well known detailer stating that the DA is know the weapon of choice the majority of the time.

http://www.detailedimage.com/Ask-a-P...ection-system/

Times change, and the rotary polisher is no longer an absolute necessity for extreme paint corrections, especially if you only plan on working on your own vehicles. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. IMHO, if you get a quality DA machine (Porter Cable, Meguiars G110v2 or Griots Garage) and the right pads and polishes for the job, you should be able to handle almost anything you are likely to find on your own car.

[sonicbimmer19]

Originally Posted by mikenap

special use only, such as for severe paint damage or to finish on some tricky paint systems where a DA will not finish down for whatever reason.

Not arguing with you at all, but that's what I said. DA will get just about everything done, except severe paint damage that needs serious compounding or something like that.
I'm no expert though, and I appreciate your input. I'm leaning heavily towards Meguiar's DA.

Btw, do you know how to fix sand mark? my friend had something on his paint and I'm guessing he could've easily gotten rid of it by using the least aggressive product such as Meguiar's SwirlX, but he sanded his hood and it severely damaged his hood. It left more than just a haze. How do you go about fixing that? I was thinking wash, clay wax, then start with Ultimate Compound and if that doesn't work, use Meguair's Ultra Cut Compound. Any other additional steps/products I should add? Thanks

[mikenap]

Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19

Not arguing with you at all, but that's what I said. DA will get just about everything done, except severe paint damage that needs serious compounding or something like that.
I'm no expert though, and I appreciate your input. I'm leaning heavily towards Meguiar's DA.

Btw, do you know how to fix sand mark? my friend had something on his paint and I'm guessing he could've easily gotten rid of it by using the least aggressive product such as Meguiar's SwirlX, but he sanded his hood and it severely damaged his hood. It left more than just a haze. How do you go about fixing that? I was thinking wash, clay wax, then start with Ultimate Compound and if that doesn't work, use Meguair's Ultra Cut Compound. Any other additional steps/products I should add? Thanks

It doesn't come across as arguing at all, no worries there. My point was that with modern compounds and pads, a professional who will be working on every possible combination of OEM and aftermarket paint, in every conceivable condition from brand new to almost needing a respray, can get by 95% of the time without a rotary. This wasn't the case as recently as 4-5 years ago, and there are still many pros who don't stay as up to date on new tech that will argue that DAs are just wax spreaders, even though there is so much proof to the contrary. With all that being said, I don't believe learning a rotary is a skill that any DIY'er needs to learn these days. The expense of the machines plus the added risk don't justify it, especially since most people will only need to learn the quirks of the paint on a couple of cars. Now I hope I don't sound like I'm arguing, just trying to clarify my position to anyone who will read this in the future.

As far as your friend's sanding marks, there will be a lot of variables on how to fix it. What grit did he use? 1000, 1500, 2000, 3000? What vehicle is it? If it's an Audi, the paint can be harder than granite. If it's a Honda, the paint can be softer than butter. Did he use a block to sand or did he use his hand only?Did he leave deeper scratches called tracers behind? How large is the spot? Are you trying to fix this by hand or machine? How much paint did he remove with his sanding attempt? Will you risk going through the clearcoat if he sanded too much already? There are a lot of possibilities here and some of them are flat out bad. Having a pro with a paint gauge will let you know if you can proceed with more sanding or not. If you are comfortable attempting it, keep reading!

Here is what I'd recommend. First find out what grit he used to sand with. I'd guess 1500 or 2000, but I don't know. If he used 1500, get some 2000 and 3000 grit paper. If he used 2.5 k or higher, you shouldn't need to sand anymore. A sanding block would help, but if you don't have one, I'd recommend getting one of those flat, block-style pencil erasers and wrapping the paper in that. Let the paper soak in soapy water for at least 15-20 minutes. When it's ready, take the block wrapped in 2k paper and lightly sand in the opposite direction of whatever your friend used. If he went north-south, you sand east-west. Do this gently and keep spraying the surface with water. Once you see all his deeper scratches replaced with your lighter ones, take the 3k and repeat those steps going in the opposite direction you first did. At that point, you should see some clarity return to the paint.

Once the spot has been sanded with 3k paper, those sanding marks should come out with ease. Start with Ultimate Compound on an orange pad and speed 6. If that doesn't do the trick, move up to 105. If the sanding marks still aren't coming out with 105, step up to a Microfiber cutting pad.

There may still be deeper tracers left in the paint that will be visible from certain angles. It all depends on how he sanded to begin with. To a degree, this will be more about damage control than getting it perfect. If you keep going after every last defect, you'll soon find out exactly how thin automotive clearcoat really is. Since you are trying to fix someone else's mistake, the risk will be higher than if you had done all the sanding yourself. I'd strongly recommend taking it to a pro, but if you are comfortable enough handling it, good luck! Let us know how it goes.

[sonicbimmer19]

Thanks for the clarification. My guess is most people don't/didn't know the real difference between rotary and DA including myself so any info would help people reading this thread.

And thanks for the instructions on how to fix sand marks. My friend is one of those guys that never wash his car and when I asked him what grit sand paper he used, he didn't know what I was asking haha. His car is Toyota Camry and he sanded by hand. It will be a while until I see him next, but if by that time I have Meguiar's DA, I'll attempt to fix it by the polisher. If not, I'll still try by hand although that's going to be tough. Either way, I'll update on how it went on this thread

[TOGWT]

"Orbital or Rotary Polisher" - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia...r-part-i.html#

I hope the information in these articles is of some help to you. If you have any further questions please let me know

[TOGWT]

Originally Posted by MuttGrunt

Holy cow someone owes this guy money. Such in-depth advice usually comes with a price.
+1 to everything

Agreed